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quote:
Originally posted by Yellow Ticket:
I think there are two different schools of thought here. The OP asked about converting a street car to compete in bracket racing to which I don't feel that's the best option.

The other school of thought is Top Sportsman/Top Dragster in which is a totally different animal and with engine management race designed controls to operate it, it would be a completely feasible option.


Indeed. Footbrake is not a good place for it IMO. Too hard to leave consistently.


Foxtrot Juliet Bravo
 
Posts: 6339 | Location: Illinois | Registered: July 08, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of TomR
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quote:
Originally posted by Bucky:
Indeed. Footbrake is not a good place for it IMO. Too hard to leave consistently.


That is actually what I wanted to do with it, run footbrake and leave with no boost so the lights, staging and 60ft are the same.


72 Nova "Hooptie"
 
Posts: 729 | Location: Hanover, MD | Registered: June 20, 2016Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Tom Reyer:
quote:
Originally posted by Bucky:
Indeed. Footbrake is not a good place for it IMO. Too hard to leave consistently.


That is actually what I wanted to do with it, run footbrake and leave with no boost so the lights, staging and 60ft are the same.


How are you going to keep it from making boost?


Foxtrot Juliet Bravo
 
Posts: 6339 | Location: Illinois | Registered: July 08, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of 1leg
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bucky:
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Reyer:
quote:
Originally posted by Bucky:
Indeed. Footbrake is not a good place for it IMO. Too hard to leave consistently.


That is actually what I wanted to do with it, run footbrake and leave with no boost so the lights, staging and 60ft are the same.


How are you going to keep it from making boost?

I think it would be more consistent if you left on some boost, let say around 4-5 pounds. I guess depend on how much HP the motor make NA. The quicker you can get to your max boost the better. Also good to have a scramble button with a extra 4-5 pounds in case you need it!


Meziere Tech.
Make sure your water pump is on whenever you check your coolant level.
 
Posts: 233 | Location: Escondido | Registered: July 01, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by 1leg:
quote:
Originally posted by Bucky:
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Reyer:
quote:
Originally posted by Bucky:
Indeed. Footbrake is not a good place for it IMO. Too hard to leave consistently.


That is actually what I wanted to do with it, run footbrake and leave with no boost so the lights, staging and 60ft are the same.


How are you going to keep it from making boost?

I think it would be more consistent if you left on some boost, let say around 4-5 pounds. I guess depend on how much HP the motor make NA. The quicker you can get to your max boost the better. Also good to have a scramble button with a extra 4-5 pounds in case you need it!


It does depend on the traction ability of the car. But the problem here is, I don't have a good way for a footbrake car to control boost over time, particularly at the launch and for sure I don't have a good way to keep it from making any boost for 60'. The lightest spring in any wastegate will make 4-6 lbs..
I'm all about thinking outside the box. And if you have a plan, go for it.


Foxtrot Juliet Bravo
 
Posts: 6339 | Location: Illinois | Registered: July 08, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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it can be done.

Cheaply? no!

if footbraking, you're gonna have to learn how to drive the stripe. All I'm gonna say.
 
Posts: 101 | Location: Il,IL | Registered: March 22, 2021Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
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Turbosmart has electric wastegates and blow off valves. I was thinking between the 2, we could vent off any boost when staging off the foot and have them close/control pressure going down track using time and gear.


72 Nova "Hooptie"
 
Posts: 729 | Location: Hanover, MD | Registered: June 20, 2016Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Reyer:
quote:
Originally posted by Bucky:
Indeed. Footbrake is not a good place for it IMO. Too hard to leave consistently.


That is actually what I wanted to do with it, run footbrake and leave with no boost so the lights, staging and 60ft are the same.


Electric operated boost dump, with a switch on the brake pedal, stage and leave normal, set your max boost level and just let it eat. Possibly add a scramble ability, or just tap the brake to dump boost and kill numbers. HMMMM


"Despite the high cost of living, it remains popular."
Dave Cook
N375
 
Posts: 1577 | Location: Indy | Registered: November 21, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Tom Reyer, in the history of drag racing things have been developed by people like you. They have an idea and others are skeptical. Like Buddy Ingersoll with the v6 in Pro Stock. When it showed big potential the rules got changed. When will you be ready to start testing? Please update as to your progress. I am an old guy here and N/A power and Powerglide is all I know for bracket racing. You cant stop progress and this project of yours could get us to the next level. Good luck and its the start of the season so hopefully we can hear your about your progress.
 
Posts: 318 | Location: ohio | Registered: June 06, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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wonder if one could look into variable geometry or variable vane turbines.

I'm surprised, but not surprised, that many have not played with them more. In a street car with gas engine, probably not a great idea. On a meth drag car, might work.

IME the biggest issue is controlling the power. You can leave with zero, but you have to ramp the power in, and the chassis and suspension have to be able to apply it to the track without getting stupid. This is and has already being done in a lot of no-prep and small-tire, but doing it and fitting within the rules might prove challenging-particularly with footbrake.

Other issue i had is if you get off the throttle at the big end while playing games at the stripe, the engine responds differently. Drag the brakes while still on the throttle is about all you can do.

Really wish I'd played with it more.
 
Posts: 101 | Location: Il,IL | Registered: March 22, 2021Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by M802138:
wonder if one could look into variable geometry or variable vane turbines.

I'm surprised, but not surprised, that many have not played with them more. In a street car with gas engine, probably not a great idea. On a meth drag car, might work.

IME the biggest issue is controlling the power. You can leave with zero, but you have to ramp the power in, and the chassis and suspension have to be able to apply it to the track without getting stupid. This is and has already being done in a lot of no-prep and small-tire, but doing it and fitting within the rules might prove challenging-particularly with footbrake.

Other issue i had is if you get off the throttle at the big end while playing games at the stripe, the engine responds differently. Drag the brakes while still on the throttle is about all you can do.

Really wish I'd played with it more.


The variable geometry deals require some special control....not crazy but adds a little complexity. Plus, there just hasn't been any market for them. Even for bracket cars you can get most of them to make boost in one second, which is what you have on a full tree. Trans/converter dump valves are simple and effective here. Using co2 for pinning the wastegate can be helpful. And a lot of attention to the tune in this area without getting caught up in gimmmic tuning is important as well.

Application of power?: Let me approach this from the other side which is power management. Most aftermarket ecm's allow you to ramp the boost in however you like. Of course you can also kill quickly with timing subtraction. Use of co2 for dome pressure on wastegates is a huge tool for all of this.

Playing the stripe is affected, but I wouldn't say that it's not doable womping the throttle. The response is a bit slower, but at that rpm, it comes back pretty darn quickly.

There are major pitfalls that people can get into with bracket turbo combos.
-choosing too large of a turbo for your hp goal range. Be realistic
-the available hp can be tempting to always try to rotate the earth. That will eat up a season and parts. Just be aware.
-going with the typical low compression ratio turbo setup can be a pitfall for a bracket car. Or relying on the boost for all of your power. Low compression means they will spool more slowly. Also choosing smaller cubic inch engines can make things difficult for bracket racing. Choosing a moderately large cube engine with moderately high compression and limiting the boost to under 12 psi can make a really decent bracket combo with a turbo only large enough to support this hp level.
-Do these sound like the typical, old tried and true guidance in bracket racing where being realistic is helpful? Folks have had some real success with the baby blowers on larger engines for bracket cars. There is a reason that is so successful. Modest boost levels on combos that are already successful.
-Ignore the big power combos that we all love to watch. That is NOT how to bracket race. Those fellas ALL run over 30 psi and make a bunch of power. They all need a lot of boost to leave, and all have enormous turbos to get the hp level they compete at. So they all have to use bump boxes. All of these things are not how to set up a turbo bracket car.


Foxtrot Juliet Bravo
 
Posts: 6339 | Location: Illinois | Registered: July 08, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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SLICKSTER, I need to correct you, we are NOT drag racing, we are bracket racing, big difference and where it's all about consistency from round to round. The OP's dream will NOT be a consistent performer and therefore not a good/winning bracket car rather he will be just wasting time, fuel, $ and in the way.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: 1320racer,
 
Posts: 13522 | Location: NJ | Registered: August 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by SLICKSTER:
Tom Reyer, in the history of drag racing things have been developed by people like you. They have an idea and others are skeptical. Like Buddy Ingersoll with the v6 in Pro Stock. When it showed big potential the rules got changed. When will you be ready to start testing? Please update as to your progress. I am an old guy here and N/A power and Powerglide is all I know for bracket racing. You cant stop progress and this project of yours could get us to the next level. Good luck and its the start of the season so hopefully we can hear your about your progress.


^^^^^^ Slickster gets it! ^^^^^^

All I Know is the same as you slickster, N/A & powerglide. I like to see set-ups out of the norm & not the cookie cutter stuff.


1980 Camaro
Taking the Best Working Small Tire Shyt Box & making it Greater Than Before!
3000 lbs.
Pump Gas 436
 
Posts: 2459 | Location: NV. | Registered: October 20, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Tom Reyer:
Just wondering if you all have seen any bracket cars running turbos at your local tracks? I've seen superchargers and prochargers forever now, just no turbos.

Been kicking around the idea of converting my 98 Camaro into a bracket car. My thinking was leave with no boost and have it come in down track to mess up closing rates at the finish line.

What do you guys think? Worth looking into or waste of time? Would use a Holley HP or Dominator setup for the injection and there are multiple ways to control the boost for staging and down track. Time vs boost, gear vs boost etc.


I like the idea, something different! We have/had a few cars at our track trying to bracket race them. I don't think they fare to well for round wins, but I'm not so sure they did that N/A either.

I'm building a ProCharged set-up for bracket racing. I plan on hopefully leaving on very little boost (low rpm launch), then short shift the gear change & then let it build boost on the back half. I don't know how it will work out, but I'll have fun with it & hopefully continue to find the final rounds.


1980 Camaro
Taking the Best Working Small Tire Shyt Box & making it Greater Than Before!
3000 lbs.
Pump Gas 436
 
Posts: 2459 | Location: NV. | Registered: October 20, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post



DRR Pro
Picture of Goob
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quote:
he will be just wasting time, fuel, $ and in the way.


Well, you are an expert at that. Laughing Hard


"Despite the high cost of living, it remains popular."
Dave Cook
N375
 
Posts: 1577 | Location: Indy | Registered: November 21, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
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Thanks for the replies.

The car is sitting on my trailer and I'm just trying to figure out what to do with it. All it really needs now is an ecm and to be tuned. Engine, trans and suspension are done. I can't see driving it on the street anymore and would rather just race it. My friends want me to sell the engine and turbo stuff and go n/a. There are enough n/a f-bodies at the track now, I don't want to be just another Camaro.


72 Nova "Hooptie"
 
Posts: 729 | Location: Hanover, MD | Registered: June 20, 2016Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Goob:
quote:
he will be just wasting time, fuel, $ and in the way.


Well, you are an expert at that. Laughing Hard

says the nobody, the loser with a shytbox that was a no show at your home track years ago when the NJFBD came to town ran the table and cleaned house all 3 days!
 
Posts: 13522 | Location: NJ | Registered: August 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by B KING:
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Reyer:
Just wondering if you all have seen any bracket cars running turbos at your local tracks? I've seen superchargers and prochargers forever now, just no turbos.

Been kicking around the idea of converting my 98 Camaro into a bracket car. My thinking was leave with no boost and have it come in down track to mess up closing rates at the finish line.

What do you guys think? Worth looking into or waste of time? Would use a Holley HP or Dominator setup for the injection and there are multiple ways to control the boost for staging and down track. Time vs boost, gear vs boost etc.


I like the idea, something different! We have/had a few cars at our track trying to bracket race them. I don't think they fare to well for round wins, but I'm not so sure they did that N/A either.

I'm building a ProCharged set-up for bracket racing. I plan on hopefully leaving on very little boost (low rpm launch), then short shift the gear change & then let it build boost on the back half. I don't know how it will work out, but I'll have fun with it & hopefully continue to find the final rounds.


Using a procharger in that way is much the same as how a turbo setup works. The equipment for a pro charger is just a lot more expensive.


Foxtrot Juliet Bravo
 
Posts: 6339 | Location: Illinois | Registered: July 08, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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1320racer, agree with you on the bracket racing. As I said all I know for bracket racing is N/A and a Powerglide. Alky or gas it just seems to be the easy no stress way to repeat numbers. But who knows with electronics and stuff not seen yet, or developed maybe at some point might work.
 
Posts: 318 | Location: ohio | Registered: June 06, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
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Who was the first to put a procharger on a bracket car? I'm sure they were told it will never work too.


72 Nova "Hooptie"
 
Posts: 729 | Location: Hanover, MD | Registered: June 20, 2016Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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