When I die ..... I want "DEEP" written on my coffin .......... and I'm going to take my dear 'ol time gettin' in..............

"Lighten up, Francis!"

Dave

If somebody were to put on a big race called the DEEP STAGE NATIONALS,approximately how many would enter?

Since there appears to be so many deep stagers,maybe the promoters are missing the boat here.

quote:

Originally posted by 442OLDS:
If somebody were to put on a big race called the DEEP STAGE NATIONALS,approximately how many would enter?

What would depend on how much the entry was and what it paid, just might surprise you....

Pretty good -- a world champion and at least 2 of the most accomplished bottom bulbers in the country + the promotor of the WORLD FOOT BRAKE CHAlLENGE understand and have no problem with it. Steve Stites did it with a Cavalier and one eye to win at least one $20,000 race, I saw Manny Sousa in tat least 2 finals at the WFC, Dave Raser ain't no joke anywhere he goes, I deep staged for years and won a few myself---yet most of the complainers here I have never seen at an added purse race, not saying you weren't or don't but normally if they are complaining about something at the tree they just don't understand and were beat by someone going deep. 3 deepers went to Indiana years ago and they were the only ones going deep. Won every race that weekend. So its alright for you to run 5.30 with every gadget known to man in a "no box" car that cost $75,000 to build yet you complain about a foot braker running in the 8s deep staging----time to get over it.

I didn't realize you couldn't have an opinion about this if you don't run the largest events.
There's no reason to make this into something it isn't. The entire tree timing deal was meant to keep racers from being unfairly held fully staged. I have no issue with deep staging as long as deep stages don't abuse the privilege. (that last word will probably rile someone up. It isn't meant to.)

You’re right Bucky, it’s NOT a privilege!! It’s a necessary staging practice just like shallow staging is. And yes it’s fine to have opinions but it’s another thing to be close minded on a subject just because they don’t do it or their local track doesn’t do it. Being able to repeat and be as consistent with your “racing numbers” as you can is the main part of racing and a lot of that has to do with staging the same every time! So if you’re allowed to flicker the stage light on in shallow staging so you’re staged the same each pass the same needs to hold true with a DEEP stager. Is that not fair?? Well Auto start and courtesy staging doesn’t allow that for DEEP stagers. Not sitting around and playing games while staging is a totally different subject. But that’s the point some have made on here that keeps getting overlooked, in Footbrake or Bottom Bulb racing, Autostart is not a “fair” deal for a DEEP stager versus a shallow stager. I’m not gonna repeat what others have already said in support of this topic but if you’re trying to bring in more opportunities for racers to be competitive, then leaving an opportunity for a person to DEEP stage properly isn’t one tactic.

quote:

Originally posted by LIZZARD:
You’re right Bucky, it’s NOT a privilege!! It’s a necessary staging practice just like shallow staging is. And yes it’s fine to have opinions but it’s another thing to be close minded on a subject just because they don’t do it or their local track doesn’t do it. Being able to repeat and be as consistent with your “racing numbers” as you can is the main part of racing and a lot of that has to do with staging the same every time! So if you’re allowed to flicker the stage light on in shallow staging so you’re staged the same each pass the same needs to hold true with a DEEP stager. Is that not fair?? Well Auto start and courtesy staging doesn’t allow that for DEEP stagers. Not sitting around and playing games while staging is a totally different subject. But that’s the point some have made on here that keeps getting overlooked, in Footbrake or Bottom Bulb racing, Autostart is not a “fair” deal for a DEEP stager versus a shallow stager. I’m not gonna repeat what others have already said in support of this topic but if you’re trying to bring in more opportunities for racers to be competitive, then leaving an opportunity for a person to DEEP stage properly isn’t one tactic.

And I never said deep staging shouldn't be allowed. I don't know if this is deflection or simply some hearing an argument from the other side that they actually aren't making. Just don't hold up the tree and be accountable for it.

I have no problem with deep staging, but there is no doubt at a track where deep is honored some deep stagers can abuse it and control the tree. But like many other situations it's up to the track to control the race, not the racers. Some tracks don't honor or allow deep staging because they don't want to police it.

quote:

Originally posted by Bucky:

quote:

Originally posted by LIZZARD:
You’re right Bucky, it’s NOT a privilege!! It’s a necessary staging practice just like shallow staging is. And yes it’s fine to have opinions but it’s another thing to be close minded on a subject just because they don’t do it or their local track doesn’t do it. Being able to repeat and be as consistent with your “racing numbers” as you can is the main part of racing and a lot of that has to do with staging the same every time! So if you’re allowed to flicker the stage light on in shallow staging so you’re staged the same each pass the same needs to hold true with a DEEP stager. Is that not fair?? Well Auto start and courtesy staging doesn’t allow that for DEEP stagers. Not sitting around and playing games while staging is a totally different subject. But that’s the point some have made on here that keeps getting overlooked, in Footbrake or Bottom Bulb racing, Autostart is not a “fair” deal for a DEEP stager versus a shallow stager. I’m not gonna repeat what others have already said in support of this topic but if you’re trying to bring in more opportunities for racers to be competitive, then leaving an opportunity for a person to DEEP stage properly isn’t one tactic.

Just don't hold up the tree and be accountable for it.

So does everyone say the same thing about a shallow stager using the full allotted time to stage with Auto Start??

Or blinking the 3rd light enough to start the clock then jumping in at the last second leaving your opponent hanging with a red light.

This argument will go on forever until the timing systems are modified to recognize the deep stagers.

I used to love watching Short Change (you know who you are) still bumping in to get DEEP while his tree was coming down, and still hit it good! That takes far more patience and focus than I could ever muster!

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Raser:
When I die ..... I want "DEEP" written on my coffin .......... and I'm going to take my dear 'ol time gettin' in..............

"Lighten up, Francis!"

Dave

Awesome!! LOL

quote:

Originally posted by Goob:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Raser:
When I die ..... I want "DEEP" written on my coffin .......... and I'm going to take my dear 'ol time gettin' in..............

"Lighten up, Francis!"

Dave

Awesome!! LOL

X2!!! Cracking me up, Dave!

quote:

Originally posted by LIZZARD:

quote:

Originally posted by Bucky:

quote:

Originally posted by LIZZARD:
You’re right Bucky, it’s NOT a privilege!! It’s a necessary staging practice just like shallow staging is. And yes it’s fine to have opinions but it’s another thing to be close minded on a subject just because they don’t do it or their local track doesn’t do it. Being able to repeat and be as consistent with your “racing numbers” as you can is the main part of racing and a lot of that has to do with staging the same every time! So if you’re allowed to flicker the stage light on in shallow staging so you’re staged the same each pass the same needs to hold true with a DEEP stager. Is that not fair?? Well Auto start and courtesy staging doesn’t allow that for DEEP stagers. Not sitting around and playing games while staging is a totally different subject. But that’s the point some have made on here that keeps getting overlooked, in Footbrake or Bottom Bulb racing, Autostart is not a “fair” deal for a DEEP stager versus a shallow stager. I’m not gonna repeat what others have already said in support of this topic but if you’re trying to bring in more opportunities for racers to be competitive, then leaving an opportunity for a person to DEEP stage properly isn’t one tactic.

Just don't hold up the tree and be accountable for it.

So does everyone say the same thing about a shallow stager using the full allotted time to stage with Auto Start??

What is the allotted time for deep staging?
Mike is dead on. It will be a loophole until the timing systems can regulate it.

If its a problem head for the tower and try to get it straight. Is this really a problem somewhere? No matter what the conditions in my experience deepers were told to "deal with it". Courtesy staging comes to mind, and we had to deal with it. When we did that upset them worse. Give me a break!

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Beck:
This argument will go on forever until the timing systems are modified to recognize the deep stagers.

I used to love watching Short Change (you know who you are) still bumping in to get DEEP while his tree was coming down, and still hit it good! That takes far more patience and focus than I could ever muster!

Thanks for the kind words Mike. I always felt in control up there and still do most times. Just not in the way some are implying here lol

I have seen far more Shallower Stagers take their sweet time just turning the Pre Stage bulb on, while the Deep Stager is already in and waiting.........

This is one reason I like Pro Tree racing where a trans brake and 2 step is allowed. My car can hit a Pro 500 Tree shallow, but not the NHRA .470 Tree, thanks Angelle for that.........

I prefer to Deep Stage no matter what type of racing I do, but I get tired of the cry-babies that say I'm cheating........

If the timing system is on full AutoStart:

A) When both cars are shallow, the last car to stage has 10 seconds to get in.

B) When one car is going shallow and the other is going deep
- If the deep car gets in first, the timer would have already been running on the shallow car. (which is what happened to green1) This is wrong. The last car to stage should still have 10 seconds to get in. Holding the tree alleviates this issue for the shallow car.
- If the shallow car fully stages first (for whatever reason, whether it be the deep car taking his time, or the shallow car rushing in to try to quick-tree the deep car), the time that the deep car has to knock the top light out is equal to the Stage-to-Start time, typically 1.1-1.7 seconds. This is wrong. The last car to stage should still have 10 seconds to get in. Holding the tree alleviates this issue for the deep car.


It's worth noting that when both cars are going shallow, the entire staging process often takes substantially longer than 10 seconds, as both cars pre-stage, go through some sort of routine, etc., and that 10 second timer doesn't even start until one car finally lights a Stage bulb. We had someone get timed out at one of our races when it was two shallow stagers. One guy was doing the same routine he always does and was in the process of bumping in, but he hadn't noticed that his opponent had pre-staged first and took a BIG chunk when he did so. The instant he pre-staged, his opponent staged, and the clock was ticking. If the one guy hadn't jumped in right away, no one watching would've thought that anyone took an abnormal amount of time. We had to watch it back on MMTV, and verified that it was a full 10 second timeout.


I deep stage *significantly* quicker than I shallow stage, yet if the tree were on full AutoStart, there are instances where the shallow car could jump in to try to quick tree me. When deep staging, I stop *before* the pre-stage beam, set my launch rpm, and then take a huge chunk to put 2 bulbs on and immediately start bumping (usually only takes about 4-5 quick bumps to get deep), and yet I've still had a few people jump in and stage before I get deep. In those instances, I'm only behind them by a second or two, but if it the tree were on automatic, it would already be coming down. I never hang anybody out. The idea that taking FAR less time deep staging vs shallow staging is somehow "taking too long" is ridiculous.


In my opinion, the last car to fully stage (both bulbs for shallow, top bulb out for Deep) should have the same maximum of 10 seconds to get there -- as a worst case. As others have mentioned, there are a few bad apples that play games, deep and shallow alike, that create controversy where there should be none. There are deep guys that try to take advantage of a starter holding a tree, there are shallow guys that try to quick tree a deep car, and there are guys that can't even seem to find the pre-stage bulb, ad infinitum.

Props to the ETS timing system for handling this issue the way it should've been decades ago.


green1 - In your first two posts, it is clear that the real problem isn't deep stagers, it is the starter. The starter admitted to his mistake, and the track should have made it right with you.

quote:

Originally posted by ferndaleflyer:
Pretty good -- a world champion and at least 2 of the most accomplished bottom bulbers in the country + the promotor of the WORLD FOOT BRAKE CHAlLENGE understand and have no problem with it.

You keep using the word UNDERSTAND. UNDERSTAND has nothing to do with it. Everyone UNDERSTANDS what it is and why people do it.

The PROBLEM is holding the tree. If the shallow stager doesn't want to let the deep stager be the one to stage last every time and control the staging process (surely he or she the shallow stager has that right) and they are both sitting there with three bulbs on and the tree held, the shallow stager will be the one to get the red bulb when the starter gets tired of waiting and flicks the switch. This is how the deep stager controls the starting line and the tree.

What you fail to UNDERSTAND is that when you break the STAGE beam, and light the STAGE bulb, you are STAGED, by definition, and you need to be ready to race. If you need extra time to roll deeper, tighten your belts, check your jock strap, whatever, that's on you. When you break the stage beam, you are STAGED.

Deep stagers are using the pre-stage beam to do something it was NEVER intended to do - help them get in the beams the same way each time. That's fine, I have no issue with it, but holding the tree is BS. You break the stage beam, you are staged and you need to be ready to race.

quote:

Originally posted by ferndaleflyer:
---yet most of the complainers here I have never seen at an added purse race, not saying you weren't or don't but normally if they are complaining about something at the tree they just don't understand and were beat by someone going deep.

The complainers are the deep-stagers. If they don't get the tree held, they can't race. Everybody else shows up to race either way.

Then you use the word UNDERSTAND again. It's looking like you don't UNDERSTAND what the word UNDERSTAND means.