 |
 |
 |
|
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
|
Bracket Talk Bracket Talk Forum Tech Talk - by Abruzzi Race Gas / Alcohol questionsGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| Race Gas / Alcohol questions | Login/Join |
DRR Top Comp |
I am building an SB2 463 Cu. In SBC it is 16 to 1 compression and .875 lift cam. I prefer to run it on alcohol but have been told by several people that this combination will work better on gas. Have been running alcohol with good results since 1998 and will try it on this motor but if it does not work what gas would you recommend and why? Pros and Cons? I am thinking trying Sunoco SR18. I do not know much about Oxygenated fuels but do think I would like to stay away from it if possible. When I Dyno I will have several different fuels and carbs. If I have to I will change intakes and go mechanical injection with Enderle hat on alcohol. First I will try the carbs and different fuels. https://postimg.cc/gallery/np3zpruo/ "Dunning-Kruger Effect" -a type of Cognitive bias where people with little expertise or ability assume they have superior expertise or ability. This overestimation occurs as a result of the fact that they do not have enough knowledge to know they don't have enough knowledge. Before you argue with someone ask yourself, "Is this person mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of a different perspective?" If not there is no point to argue. 4X NE2 CHAMPION. 2020 TDRA NE2 Champion | ||
|
DRR Pro |
I'll probably catch hell for this but here goes: Get the chambers softened and have a cam ground for it specifying alky as the fuel. I think the cam makes more of a difference than the chambers, just some might be more sensitive to it than others. One less thing I'd worry about as well is peak hp. Peak hp is for bragging rights, average hp is what will win races....the overwhelming majority of alky powered engines out there generally make better average power than gas and that's why you generally see lower ets as well, also because they make more torque down low. Doesn't mean that gas setups can't run just as well in the same ranges, it's just easier with alky....I've said it a million times and I'm going to keep saying it. I won't ever switch back to gas after running alky.....ever..... Mark Goulette Owner/Driver of the Livin' The Dream Racing dragster www.livinthedreamracing.com "Speed kills but it's better than going slow!" Authorized Amsoil Retailer | |||
|
| DRR Sportsman |
That’s a decent amount of compression and seems what you are building would like gas more If you want to run alcohol, then I’d do exactly as the post above says while building the engine. Also, after running alcohol for a decade, I would not run it without a primer plus system. I don’t care if it’s carb or injection, get the primer plus system. | |||
|
| DRR Top Comp |
I told both the head porters and LSM who did the custom cam for me I wanted to run alcohol if possible. Compression is something to think about, I typically do not like to run that much compression and like to keep it more conservative. This motor I am going to be asking a lot out of it and both said to run 16 or more. I set it up with a .041 head gasket and can lower it to 15.1X by just going to the .061 gasket. M&M who ported the heads and intake do not like to run alcohol on anything. Think his reasoning for that was added maintenance of alcohol which is not a big deal. IMHO. LSM who did the cam said this cam will work well with alcohol as long as compression is up around 16. On a motor that was similar but smaller we lost 40 Hp going from gas carb to alcohol carb. I am sure I could have done some tuning on the alcohol carb and got another 10 maybe 15 HP but it was still significantly lower than the gas carb so I called of the dyno and moved on. The O2 numbers and all other numbers were looking good so any increases from there would have been minor. This new motor I am building is more radical and more cubic inches so it is not an apples to apples comparison but should trend along same lines. So this tells me I may very well have to run gas like it or not. Has been discussed here several times that at some power level and cubic inches gas works better. There has been many theories for why or even if it does. I agree with Mark Goulette, I did not think I would EVER go back to gas and not liking it. Built my car with very small radiator and cooling system that will not work well with gas. Those things can be changed I guess if gas performs well enough. Now I do have a really nice tunnel ram and I could run Enderle mechanical injection. Those are easy for me to tune for power. On this one I am wanting to run a carb now. Just easier to start and and tune to run number. May use a small 50 or 100 shot of Nitrous and soften hit and run better top end and help run number. Have not ran race gas since 1998. Brings us back to original question, What gas do you recommend? Pros and Cons? Are the Oxygenated fuels really worth time trouble and money? https://postimg.cc/gallery/np3zpruo/ "Dunning-Kruger Effect" -a type of Cognitive bias where people with little expertise or ability assume they have superior expertise or ability. This overestimation occurs as a result of the fact that they do not have enough knowledge to know they don't have enough knowledge. Before you argue with someone ask yourself, "Is this person mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of a different perspective?" If not there is no point to argue. 4X NE2 CHAMPION. 2020 TDRA NE2 Champion | |||
|
DRR S/Pro |
Go back to what you know, put the Enderle MFI on it, you wont be happy with a gas carb.... | |||
|
| DRR Pro |
I've used all the fuels mentioned plus, E-85 pump & X-85. They all have their Pros/Cons, you have to figure what's going to work best for you! Pick your flavor of race gas to use based on your compression ratio. As for oxygenated fuels, the time/trouble & money isn't a big deal in the big picture of what we do or the fuels we use. The 35+ years I've been doing this I always seem to go back to race gas or oxygenated gas. The latter is what I run now; 100 unleaded pump gas oxygenated with ethanol. 2BKING  1980 Camaro Taking the Best Working Small Tire Shyt Box & making it Greater Than Before! 3000 lbs. Pump Gas 436 | |||
|
| DRR Sportsman |
With 16:1 compression Sunoco maximal VP x16 Fuel factory f16 | |||
|
| DRR Pro |
Not sure why everybody is so dead set against high compression with alky. My new build is 17.72:1 and runs great! Think of it this way: Supercharged and turbocharged combos can have an effective compression ratio as high as 25:1 or more depending on amount of boost, and alky loves it! Why do you think they are able to make the power they do? That's the nice thing about alky, you can run it rich if you need to for cooling not only the engine but the combustion chamber.....try doing that with gas....my last combo was 16.5:1 and I had no issues, and it ran better on alky than it did on gas! Get that compression ratio up there!!! Mark Goulette Owner/Driver of the Livin' The Dream Racing dragster www.livinthedreamracing.com "Speed kills but it's better than going slow!" Authorized Amsoil Retailer | |||
|
| DRR Top Comp |
Two reasons. 1. Quite a few people who supposedly know say that Gas will make more power with this combination. May or may not be true but on other motor similar made quite a bit less on alcohol with carb. Do know that I can get more with mechanical injection than a carb but more than gas? 2. With mechanical injection it is sometimes hard to start. With a gas carb pump it once and it fires right up. But a gas carb would build a lot of heat and my cooling system is really small and not designed for gas. So there is pros and cons with it and Dyno will make final decisions. https://postimg.cc/gallery/np3zpruo/ "Dunning-Kruger Effect" -a type of Cognitive bias where people with little expertise or ability assume they have superior expertise or ability. This overestimation occurs as a result of the fact that they do not have enough knowledge to know they don't have enough knowledge. Before you argue with someone ask yourself, "Is this person mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of a different perspective?" If not there is no point to argue. 4X NE2 CHAMPION. 2020 TDRA NE2 Champion | |||
|
DRR Pro |
Smokey Yunick claimed that Alky is good for 5% more peak HP, at compression ratios over 15:1 Take that for what it's worth. Never lower compression by using a fat gasket and ruining your quench area in a N/A application. Might be variables there in applications with a very small combustion chamber and flat tops, but I'm referencing 23 degree stuff with domes. On to the gasoline portion.... 23 degree heads? Peak RPM target? RPM range of operation, combustion chamber, and operating temperature are more important than static compression ratio in determining the octane requirement. "Despite the high cost of living, it remains popular." Dave Cook N375 | |||
|
| DRR Top Comp |
That is some very good points and one reason I have always said that I think with big cubic inch, high performance motors should do better on alcohol. Yet most with those combinations are making better with gas. Have been told if you are making over 2 Hp per cubic inch you have to run gas. Why? What is the key on those? Possibly something with cam? Some say that the chamber is full of alcohol and no room for air. If that is the case how can similar blower motor put 3 times more fuel in there with out blowing heads off motor and crank out bottom? https://postimg.cc/gallery/np3zpruo/ "Dunning-Kruger Effect" -a type of Cognitive bias where people with little expertise or ability assume they have superior expertise or ability. This overestimation occurs as a result of the fact that they do not have enough knowledge to know they don't have enough knowledge. Before you argue with someone ask yourself, "Is this person mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of a different perspective?" If not there is no point to argue. 4X NE2 CHAMPION. 2020 TDRA NE2 Champion | |||
|
| DRR Pro |
You brought up one of the biggest fallacies regarding alky, and that's the "volume of fuel" in the chamber. Couple of things to remember on this. First, alky is nearly 50% oxygen by content, so it brings some oxygen with it in the form of chemical oxygen, which is no different than oxygenated gas, just on a much bigger concentration. Second is how much fuel is actually in the chamber. Steve Morris did and excellent video on this when he blew his wagon up using the Vader aluminum rods. On alky, an engine needs approximately 1/2 a teaspoon, or 2.5cc of fuel per cycle to make 4000 hp. That's based on the heat content of the fuel and how it works. At the power levels we are at, it shouldn't even be an issue even with tiny chambers. What I've learned about my "journey" with alky, is that the cam has more to do with how an engine behaves on alky than the head design....some will be more finicky and will be very picky on camshaft profiles, like the SR20's, but can and do work well on alky, and make great power to boot. I'm running MBE Big Nine heads now, and even with a converter that is WAY too tight, I've ran a personal best so far that is also 11mph faster than I've ever gone, ON ALKY....so yes, it works. Now for the big one....it is widely accepted and stated that the more refined an engine is, the more power it will make on gas.....however, my counter to that is: Refined for what? When an engine is refined to run a specific fuel, it will make the most power ON THAT FUEL....and less on one it was not designed for. Alky and gas are two very different fuels with different burn rates and such. Ask a 410 World of Outlaws sprint car engine builder about how much they make....they are some of the highest hp per cube engines there are, and they run alky.... Another thing that is brought up is that gas has higher btu than alky, and when compared pound for pound, that is correct. However, when you compare at stoich, things change considerably.....alky wins over gas in btu output when at the proper a/f ratios, period. That's just physics. I've done and continue to do a lot of research on alky vs. gas for racing. There is so much misinformation out there it's crazy, but if you dig, you'll find the answers. Mark Goulette Owner/Driver of the Livin' The Dream Racing dragster www.livinthedreamracing.com "Speed kills but it's better than going slow!" Authorized Amsoil Retailer | |||
|
| DRR Pro |
With a N/A engine and always using MFI (methanol) one should consider trying EFI. It won’t be any faster, but the ease of tuning everywhere is greatly increased. ECU’s offer excellent data acquisition as an added benefit because it uses the same sensors one has in stand-alone DA and more. Holleys ECU systems offer excellent online programming tutoring and there are several good forums for help as well. The ECU software is Not difficult to navigate with a little practice. I have seen several racers switching to EFI on methanol, one being Nick Hastings. | |||
|
| DRR Top Comp |
markemark, I agree with you but I also saw a significant horsepower loss on one of my motors when I changed from gas carb to alcohol carb. That motor had good air / fuel ratio and timing was good yet on dyno it went 40 Hp down. Of course I will try both on this new motor. Fuel injection may get more of the horsepower back. https://postimg.cc/gallery/np3zpruo/ "Dunning-Kruger Effect" -a type of Cognitive bias where people with little expertise or ability assume they have superior expertise or ability. This overestimation occurs as a result of the fact that they do not have enough knowledge to know they don't have enough knowledge. Before you argue with someone ask yourself, "Is this person mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of a different perspective?" If not there is no point to argue. 4X NE2 CHAMPION. 2020 TDRA NE2 Champion | |||
|
DRR S/Pro |
I don't think many consider getting the mass of fuel moving when talking about making big power on Methanol. Boosted engines were referenced in here and their ability to make big power on Methanol. The movement is facilitated by the mechanical device giving the boost is how they do it. It's not just about chamber volume in my opinion. That is why the cam is so much different on Methanol than gas. ____________________________ 2017 and 2018 Osage Casinos Tulsa Raceway Park No-Box Champion 2018 Div4 Goodguys Hammer award winner | |||
|
| DRR S/Pro |
There is no end to drag racers trying to make more power, it's in our DNA. One opposing point to consider is the annual fuel expense. Depending on how often you run your car the difference in that annual expense can amount to a lot of money. Please refer to the last paragraph. Second point is the consistency of the car on alcohol verses race gas. This is based on where you predominately run the car and those weather factors. Humidity has a greater effect on alcohol, temperature and the barometric pressure have a greater effect on race gas. You will probably win more races with consistency than the additional power race gas might provide. Last thought: Personally I would build the combination to run on alcohol using EFI. The money you save on race fuel (using alcohol) might just pay for the EFI that Mark recommended. Bob | |||
|
DRR Sportsman |
I know of several that are sucessful with it. Camshaft is everything, the single alky carb doesnt NORMALLY run with a GOOD gas carb, but injection makes up for it and runs with the gas stuff through the warmer months. The gas will still shine in great weather......most of the time. Jeremiah Hall | |||
|
DRR Trophy |
What is changed on the cam grind for alky? I've been wanting to build something other than my 24* headed 632 but no one wants to build it for alky. What kind of injection do you run?
| |||
|
| DRR Pro |
What's considered working better on one fuel or another? As Bob stated above, most are trying to make more power. Sometimes when I read threads/posts on DRR. It's more about chasing the tail for power or ET & not bracket racing. IMO Curly, put your engine on methanol. A fuel you seem to be comfortable with & stop chasing your tail. If the results are not what you want. Then go back & visit race gas for your allusive power you appear to be chasing. Now, there always seems to be someone that gives me shyt after I make comments like this & brings up my ProCharger combo. Plain & simple, I can make 300-400 more HP than I'm making now, but I don't. I've been slowly taking away power to find my sweet spot & still maintain my MPH advantage. 2BKING 1980 Camaro Taking the Best Working Small Tire Shyt Box & making it Greater Than Before! 3000 lbs. Pump Gas 436 | |||
|
| DRR Top Comp |
To answer a few questions, I am going to need all the power I can get because I want to step up to 4.60 class. The heads are being ported by M&M and I have a Tunnel Ram and single four barrel intakes for them so they will match close. I can put the Enderle Bird catcher on the tunnel ram if needed. https://postimg.cc/gallery/np3zpruo/ "Dunning-Kruger Effect" -a type of Cognitive bias where people with little expertise or ability assume they have superior expertise or ability. This overestimation occurs as a result of the fact that they do not have enough knowledge to know they don't have enough knowledge. Before you argue with someone ask yourself, "Is this person mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of a different perspective?" If not there is no point to argue. 4X NE2 CHAMPION. 2020 TDRA NE2 Champion | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 2 3 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
Bracket Talk Bracket Talk Forum Tech Talk - by Abruzzi Race Gas / Alcohol questions
 |
 |
 |
 |
