quote:

Originally posted by Curly1:
To answer a few questions, I am going to need all the power I can get because I want to step up to 4.60 class.

Now we know the rest of the story!

Don't bother trying a non-oxygenated race gas. Test VP Q16 or the equivalent brand(s).

I have some HP to spare in the form of boost & a great way to manage it, EFI.

2BKING

quote:

Originally posted by inferno camaro:
What is changed on the cam grind for alky? I've been wanting to build something other than my 24* headed 632 but no one wants to build it for alky.

What kind of injection do you run?

I run a Killer Ron's dual terminator setup. Best money I ever spent on my race car that's for sure. My daughter's car is running an Enderle setup, that's what my buddy put on it before he sold it to her.....he also agreed it was the best thing he did for his program.

On a dedicated alky cam, I might be mistaken, but I think they have a bit more exhaust duration than a comparable cam ground for gasoline. Not sure why anybody wouldn't want to build one for you, it's not a big deal. For a custom cam for alky, I'd go with either Erson or Bullet. I did bullet. I think both have more experience with alky fueled engines than anybody else...can't say 100% but I do believe this is the case. I had zero issues getting a custom cam for my combo.....

Engine builders around me just don't seem want to build anything other than 24* for alky. I've not checked with a cam company.
Thanks

Inferno:

You might contact Mark Chacon at Bullet Cams, (662) 893-5670. Mark is an excellent contact with decades of experience.

Mention Black Hawk Down.

Bob

quote:

Originally posted by inferno camaro:
Engine builders around me just don't seem want to build anything other than 24* for alky. I've not checked with a cam company.
Thanks

I build my own....New combo is running MBE Big Nine heads....and it's a beast.....

What I've found with a lot of builders is that they don't know alky, mostly because they never deal with it....so they are "scared" of it....not sure that's the right term to use, but all I can think of. I started off with 12* stuff.....

Cams, I usually deal with Bullet but on large SB2 cams they can only go to .410 lobes IF THEY CAN GET THE CORES. Right now they are not available and it would not be big enough anyway. The cam I need is SB2 with 50 MM roller bearings and 7/4-3/2 swap and fairly big. Comp Cams and LSM are only ones who could do that cam for me. It appears that most all cam companies use cores and grind them to final specs so the core has to be correct firing order and journal size. LSM machines custom from billet?

First I called Comp Cams and was literally on hold for 1.5 hours first time and 30 minutes next time I tried and never did talk to a human. F- them.

Then I called LSM, they recommended the cam for me and said it would be 16 weeks for delivery. As I understand it the large SB2 cams Comp Cams sells are made by LSM. Do not know about any other cams. Got the cam in last week while I was at PRI. It is a large cam with lots of exhaust duration.

Thank you for all of the advice and opinions. What I am going to do is set up my four barrel intake and dyno it with several gas and alcohol carbs. Then if I do not get results I want I will put my tunnel ram intake on there with Enderle Birdcatcher and mechanical injection. Looks like she will be on the dyno for several days. Then if it all goes well will start looking into Nitrous and dyno again. This motor will still probably need a 50-100 shot to run number I want. That will work out well I can pull timing and leave relatively soft and bring in Nitrous to run number and better top end.

I know that many say you have to run Gas at that power level but I agree with you guys and going to try both. Once again Thank you for your opinions.

im with alaska on this go alky.the dyno will tell you,and as he said the best average

alky injection will make roughly 8 % more power

quote:

Originally posted by Big Steve:
Go back to what you know, put the Enderle MFI on it, you wont be happy with a gas carb....

^^THIS^^
I know I wasn't happy with a gas carb and going back to what I know, Alky injection

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Big Steve,

^^^^^ Very Nice, and with a PP as well! Is that the same intake manifold you had the carb on?

quote:

Originally posted by markemark:
^^^^^ Very Nice, and with a PP as well! Is that the same intake manifold you had the carb on?

Thank you, Yes. This also the same 565 that was in my Camaro that went 5.2x at 2900lbs and my bracket dragster the that went 4.70 at 2000lbs both with this very same Rons Terminator on it.
PST s10 is 2500lbs and went 5.30 with the gas carb, hoping for 5.10 without the cooling issues of the gas carb

quote:

Originally posted by Big Steve: PST s10 is 2500lbs and went 5.30 with the gas carb, hoping for 5.10 without the cooling issues of the gas carb

Now that you know first hand how great carbs are, perhaps you’d consider improving the MFI to EFI laptop tuning in the future.

I gave a lot of thought to switching to EFI on my blown TD but got scared when I thought about how expensive the learning curve could be at that level of power

quote:

Originally posted by Big Steve:
I gave a lot of thought to switching to EFI on my blown TD but got scared when I thought about how expensive the learning curve could be at that level of power

And mfi just works, period. A lot can go wrong with efi.....with a lot of that wrong at the expense of engine parts.....not to say mfi won't mess up, but what's the likelihood?

quote:

Originally posted by Big Steve: I gave a lot of thought to switching to EFI on my blown TD but got scared when I thought about how expensive the learning curve could be at that level of power

Agreed on TD, but in N/A it is much easier. Install the ECU with what you have now, continue to use MFI, collect all the run data in ECU and learn how to use the system without tuning. Then when comfortable, switch to EFI intake manifold, plug in the injectors and go.

I used this method going from years of MFI (never owned a carb) to EFI and was very happy with the results. Today, I would never use anything but EFI in my race car. I have complete (more) control of the fuel delivery with ease of changes. The data acquisition is excellent in my system.

quote:

And mfi just works, period. A lot can go wrong with efi.....with a lot of that wrong at the expense of engine parts.....not to say mfi won't mess up, but what's the likelihood?

My MFI always worked properly in the 14 years that I used it. Sold it after I had the EFI system (on methanol) working.

The EFI system has been raced for 3.5 yrs now and over 500 runs. I’ve upgraded the ECU and digital dash firmware several times as new versions became available. The original injectors are still in the intake, never removed, and have been trouble free. I use Klotz Uplon, same as when I had MFI, as the injector manufacturer recommends. Not saying it's perfect, but it's been excellent for me so far.

My question is. Why so much compression? Asking because you have more than one time told not that much extra power with compression and really very littl gain after 14.5 or so.

Had to ask after previous replys on my compression questions. i all hinesty I agree with not much gain after 14.5, especailly with waht it takes to get much more.

As for gas or alky. I have never seen why either would not work equally or slight edge to alky. If womething with heads and easily correct so could run both why would you not do it? Can see where coment on cam makes lot of since on working better with one than other.Fuel volue and burn rate being my thinking.

quote:

Originally posted by wideopen231:
My question is. Why so much compression? Asking because you have more than one time told not that much extra power with compression and really very littl gain after 14.5 or so.

Had to ask after previous replys on my compression questions. i all hinesty I agree with not much gain after 14.5, especailly with waht it takes to get much more.

As for gas or alky. I have never seen why either would not work equally or slight edge to alky. If womething with heads and easily correct so could run both why would you not do it? Can see where coment on cam makes lot of since on working better with one than other.Fuel volue and burn rate being my thinking.

I don't recall myself ever mentioning there is little power to be gained with compression ratios above 14.5:1, but I do know it's been said. However, I will disagree with that to a point. When I built my last combo, my head guy and engine guy both wanted my compression ratio high. It helps to offset the loss of air pressure at altitude since I was in Denver, Co. My last deal was set at 16.5:1. When I switched to alky, it responded very well and clearly made more power as the et's dropped and mph increased substantially. My new combo was supposed to be the same compression ratio, but somehow we ended up a bit high...that's ok. What's happening now, is that my engine is making more power from less fuel than it did before. Yes, I have a larger pump and nozzle jets now. But I'm bypassing a lot more than I did with a similar tune on the old combo at sea level. The engine is wanting a leaner mixture which tells me it's way more efficient than my last build. Yes, the heads, intake, and cam are a major player in that, but so is the compression. I'm still at almost the same timing and the engine is telling me it wants more....I'll take more power on less fuel any day of the week.

quote:

Originally posted by Alaskaracer:

quote:

Originally posted by Big Steve:
I gave a lot of thought to switching to EFI on my blown TD but got scared when I thought about how expensive the learning curve could be at that level of power

And mfi just works, period. A lot can go wrong with efi.....with a lot of that wrong at the expense of engine parts.....not to say mfi won't mess up, but what's the likelihood?

I knew very little about tuning a boosted engine only through research & the same for EFI. So, why learn both at the same time? The reason why I did EFI was the safeties you can build into the tune. I'm sure M & M can explain it a lot better than I & I'm sure it slipped his mind.

Here's a safety example: when I had an initial tune done by a so-called expert. He stated I could race the shyt out of his tune. Yes, I tried but the car was slow as a constipated turd. While I dialed back some of the extreme safeties, I still have them in place. I'll give a couple real examples:

The 1st one: I had been running the car in the shop during the winter. I always get the car up around 210* to burn all the moisture out of the oil. It got to 200* & started running like shyt, @ 210* it damn near killed the motor. The tune was set-up to pull 10* timing @ 200 & 20* @ 210*.

2nd one: I use closed loop to make fuel corrections & use the closed loop compensation for a safety. If an injector or fuel system issue starts to go south. The compensation will help crutch the tune to add more fuel.

I have other safeties in play & I'm sure there's more advanced safeties that I could be using (I'm an EFI rookie). Regardless, EFI allows you to set-up redundant safeties in your tune-up.

I started with one of the most basic Holley EFI set-ups they made. I had no major issues with it while racing & the minor issues were self-inflicted. The final major issue was me taking out the ECU with me mistakenly touching the battery - & + with a wrench. I have safety precautions to prevent that now. I have an upgraded more robust Holley EFI system installed now for the new season.

2BKING hopes M & M explains it a little better than I.

quote:

Originally posted by Big Steve:
I gave a lot of thought to switching to EFI on my blown TD but got scared when I thought about how expensive the learning curve could be at that level of power

I am with Steve on this one, I realize the benefits of EFI. It will start up nice and clean like a carb, you can have all kinds of safeties built in, You can set it to warm up quicker and use a lot less fuel.

But I really do not know much about tuning them and need to get a set up that is competitive from the start. I do not have the time or the money to spend 2 years learning and tuning the thing.