quote:

Originally posted by Tom Reyer:
The problem is, those in the know need to educate those who still think old school instead of treating them like idiots.

I had the same problem when I didn't understand. My buddy, a chassis builder, treated me like an idiot, well anyway, I told him "time out, please educate me so I understand." At this point he sat down and took the time to explain it to me. Then, over time, I started to understand it better as I worked on many different cars and set ups.

When you tell someone they are wrong or clueless, the feel the need to defend themselves and the message is lost. It's all in the delivery.

Great point,,, but what about those who don't listen,,, don't like your answer and go ask someone else until they get the answers they want?? There a loads of these guys!

quote:

Originally posted by Tom Reyer:
Yep, but everyone still quotes him for some reason.

Frankly I don't think he was "wrong" with most of what he wrote. I have read 3 chassis books cover to cover, and each of the three authors explained things in a different way. All using the same physics as a basis. I don't consider any of it wrong. Just another angle.
It's like having three different ways to solve a math problem correctly. Are any of the methods wrong? I tell my son with regards to math, it is healthy and beneficial to be familiar with different methods to solving problems. Some ways work better for some problems and make better sense to some individuals.

As far as expert car builders go: Just because they have built many high dollar pro stock cars, doesn't mean they will have applicable advice regarding pipe racks. We all have to do what makes sense to us. Running 4 degrees of pinion angle doesn't make sense to me. So that isn't something I am going to try.

quote:

Originally posted by TOP38:

quote:

Originally posted by Tom Reyer:
The problem is, those in the know need to educate those who still think old school instead of treating them like idiots.

I had the same problem when I didn't understand. My buddy, a chassis builder, treated me like an idiot, well anyway, I told him "time out, please educate me so I understand." At this point he sat down and took the time to explain it to me. Then, over time, I started to understand it better as I worked on many different cars and set ups.

When you tell someone they are wrong or clueless, the feel the need to defend themselves and the message is lost. It's all in the delivery.

Great point,,, but what about those who don't listen,,, don't like your answer and go ask someone else until they get the answers they want?? There a loads of these guys!

That's ok! It's a free country, and if someone wants to convince themselves that they already have the answer, that's up to them. All we can do is offer the best advice we know. And stay open minded about answers when we have questions.

quote:

Originally posted by TOP38:

quote:

Originally posted by Tom Reyer:
The problem is, those in the know need to educate those who still think old school instead of treating them like idiots.

I had the same problem when I didn't understand. My buddy, a chassis builder, treated me like an idiot, well anyway, I told him "time out, please educate me so I understand." At this point he sat down and took the time to explain it to me. Then, over time, I started to understand it better as I worked on many different cars and set ups.

When you tell someone they are wrong or clueless, the feel the need to defend themselves and the message is lost. It's all in the delivery.

Great point,,, but what about those who don't listen,,, don't like your answer and go ask someone else until they get the answers they want?? There a loads of these guys!

Some people you just can't help. That happens everywhere (especially at the track), some do exactly like you said and all they are trying to do is validate their buddies idea or their own opinion. They won't take no for an answer. Time to move on.

SO to that thing pinion angle (PA) effects traction..

No matter what, the drive shaft (DS) delivers torque to the rear yoke and through the magic inside the rear this torque is applied to the rear tires,,, and that's with any friggin PA you chose to run. Now whatever the tires and track are capable of handling results in torque transferred to the chassis through the rear end housing and 4 link bars. This torque is counter acted by the 4 link bars or the rear end would just rotate... and the bars transmit the loads to the chassis. The movement of the rear end depends on shocks, 4 link geometry and load (which is not a constant!) along with time. As the rear end moves (up or down), the bar angles change resulting in different forces that they carry.... Hopefully we can all agree on this...???

Now how does the PA changing from 0 to 2 degrees up of down change things? And BTW the PA is also moving relative to the rear movement.

I just don't see any differences! Well maybe a small one as mentioned earlier, changing the PA moves the 4 link bar attachment points to the rear housing a small amount which will change the loads the bars will carry but its so small I just can see it doing squat...

Too really get deep into this your really need to know the all the facts which include the full geometry of the rear end housing and its 4 link attachment hole positions along with the lengths of the 4 link bars........ IMO I call BS on the PA for 99.99% of the combos out there with regards to traction!!!

However its a free world so believe what helps you sleep at night

quote:

Originally posted by Tom Reyer:

quote:

Originally posted by TOP38:

quote:

Originally posted by Tom Reyer:
The problem is, those in the know need to educate those who still think old school instead of treating them like idiots.

I had the same problem when I didn't understand. My buddy, a chassis builder, treated me like an idiot, well anyway, I told him "time out, please educate me so I understand." At this point he sat down and took the time to explain it to me. Then, over time, I started to understand it better as I worked on many different cars and set ups.

When you tell someone they are wrong or clueless, the feel the need to defend themselves and the message is lost. It's all in the delivery.

Great point,,, but what about those who don't listen,,, don't like your answer and go ask someone else until they get the answers they want?? There a loads of these guys!

Some people you just can't help. That happens everywhere (especially at the track), some do exactly like you said and all they are trying to do is validate their buddies idea or their own opinion. They won't take no for an answer. Time to move on.

A buddy of mine has a saying for this..

Can't save the world so you have o save yourself! LOL

I did not see how it could actually make difference . As Allan Starr once said if you don't learn something new everyday you wasted a day. Guess I saved this day.LOL

quote:

Originally posted by TOP38:

quote:

Originally posted by Tom Reyer:
The problem is, those in the know need to educate those who still think old school instead of treating them like idiots.

I had the same problem when I didn't understand. My buddy, a chassis builder, treated me like an idiot, well anyway, I told him "time out, please educate me so I understand." At this point he sat down and took the time to explain it to me. Then, over time, I started to understand it better as I worked on many different cars and set ups.

When you tell someone they are wrong or clueless, the feel the need to defend themselves and the message is lost. It's all in the delivery.

Great point,,, but what about those who don't listen,,, don't like your answer and go ask someone else until they get the answers they want?? There a loads of these guys!

EXACTLY!

I've learned long ago that people that ask advice, don't want advice at all, they want confirmation of what they already decided is correct and/or will do. Those that disagree with them are idiots and those that agree are smart and there's several here who are that guy whose ego's are easily bruised when they discover they ain't as knowledgeable as they think they are.

quote:

Originally posted by TOP38:
I call BS on the PA for 99.99% of the combos out there with regards to traction!!!

However its a free world so believe what helps you sleep at night

The FACTS and the TRUTH^^^

quote:

Originally posted by TOP38:
..... IMO I call BS on the PA for 99.99% of the combos out there with regards to traction!!!

Appreciate ya giving me .01% ....... I hate to be completely left out.






.

quote:

Originally posted by 1320racer:
Dave Morgan was clueless when he wrote that book 25 years ago and still is today.

.....was always about the $$ ...... had a good teacher.



.

had a teacher then that was clueless about PA too.

those who can do those who can't teach

quote:

Originally posted by XPS fan:

quote:

Originally posted by TOP38:
..... IMO I call BS on the PA for 99.99% of the combos out there with regards to traction!!!

Appreciate ya giving me .01% ....... I hate to be completely left out.






.

Your welcome. I try to stay away from always or never,,, they seam to be proven wrong sooner or later!

quote:

Originally posted by XPS fan:

quote:

Originally posted by 1320racer:
Dave Morgan was clueless when he wrote that book 25 years ago and still is today.

.....was always about the $$ ...... had a good teacher.



.

Just for the record, I taught Dave a thing or two and number of years ago..... really!!! Do I get an AT A BOY???????

no but you proved my point. He had that rag published 25 years ago and yet you are educating him a few years ago.

quote:

Originally posted by 1320racer:
no but you proved my point. He had that rag published 25 years ago and yet you are educating him a few years ago.

It was more than few,,, like probably close to 15

quote:

Originally posted by 1320racer:
had a teacher then that was clueless about PA too.

those who can do those who can't teach

I was referring to Tom Alston .....good at marketing and making $$.


Did you know Morgan once worked for ATI ??






.

quote:

Originally posted by TOP38:
Just for the record, I taught Dave a thing or two and number of years ago..... really!!! Do I get an AT A BOY???????

ATTABOY !!!!







.

quote:

Originally posted by XPS fan:


Did you know Morgan once worked for ATI ??






.

Yep

quote:

Originally posted by Tom Reyer:
I'm am no means an expert on this.

It's all about driveshaft/u joint alignment and not pinion angle. Even the best have changed their minds on this subject in the last few years and almost all agree, pinion angle has nothing to do with how hard a car hits the tires. Even Dave Morgan has said such. (I include him by name because that is who everyone seems to quote for the last 15+ years)

Watch this video on u-joint velocity and how it changes with driveshaft alignment. Tell me how adding "pinion angle" will help a car hook.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmV4qwLfOMY

It's quite simple (to me), if the car responds to an angle change, you had the u-joints in a bind previously. Add more and go to far, you are back to binding.

You want to change the chassis, you need to change the bars, ride height, shock or torsion bar setting, etc. "Pinion angle" makes a difference because of the movement of the rear housing. We call it pinion angle because in order to change the alignment, you need to move the pinion up or down. The car responds to better alignment and people assume its "pinion angle" that was the cure.

This is pretty much how I feel about this subject. I'll add that the person doing the adjusting needs have an idea or know what the rearend is doing under power and then adjust as needed. Even a 4 link (depending on the design) has pinion angle changes with the position of the rearend. Albeit a small amount compared to leaf spring or ladder bar cars.

Scott

FWIW, I think that a high HP suspended dragster should have a CV driveshaft. Conventional U-joints are not reliable at higher HP levels. I've seen the results of failure several times......not pretty

Or a hardtail is better yet......