Bucky, where do you take the pressure?

If you look at the top of this graph I posted on another thread you can see all my fuel pressure and fuel flow numbers, pressure is taken at the pump outlet, flow is after the BV before the distribution blocks so is actual fuel going in the motor this is on a 6.12 @ 230 mph pass. Curser is at the 6.10 mark.

On a Enderle K valve when throttle is closed ports are open to idle and pump saver checks so they both open at the same time when lifting, pump saver only open for a split sec until pressure drops below the 125 psi I have the check pressure set for then the rest flows through the idle check. Never had any spikes in pressure when lifting. I also have the pump saver check plumbed to the hat distribution block so it sprayed fuel on the rotors to help cool the blower

Acgtuallu Steve there is a spool that is not drilled for pump saver allowing it to be used differently. I have used it as a second set of port nozzles. They were dead at the stage and flowed when WOT. Also can be sued for cleanout that can only flow when WOT. Just in case ever want to do something with that.

quote:

Originally posted by "The Bender":
Bucky, where do you take the pressure?

Now at the regulator. On mfi on the line going into the distribution block/spool.

quote:

Originally posted by Bucky:

quote:

Originally posted by "The Bender":
Bucky, where do you take the pressure?

Now at the regulator. On mfi on the line going into the distribution block/spool.

I would think that would be a little lower pressure than right at the outlet of a pump like I was doing, don't know for sure though

I've done multiple dyno sessions with MFI and NA big block chevy's 565 conventional head and 615 SR20 head. 7500 RPM and less, fuel pressure taken at the distribution block, have done it with cube valve on 565 and K valve on 615. Enderle 80A flow rated at 7.2 or 7.3 (not verified just what was on the tag when i bought it)

565, enderle cube BV, 38 nozzle jets, 80A pump, 1000 HP, 790 TQ, 105 main, 65 to 66 PSI, 7400 RPM.

615 enderle K valve, 38 nozzle jets, 80 A pump 1090 HP, 905 TQ, don't have the sheets with me but seems like pressures were similar main pill was 85 to 95 range, 7400 rpm.

509, enderle cube bv, 36 jets, 80 A pump, 850 HP 740 TQ, 70 PSI no high speed, 60 to 63 with high speed, 7400 RPM

I don't recall seeing any significant difference in the K valve vs. the cube. High speed is a little difficult to determine if and when its coming in and out because of limited instrumentation options on the dyno, actually utilized the oil pressure sensor for the fuel pressure indication and data recording. There's a guy on here, Mopar dude, has a dyno in/around Austin Texas area, i've talked with him hes a MFI guy, he should have plenty of info as his Dyno is setup specifically for testing and tuning on MFI systems so he's got plenty of data recording options and pressure indications.

quote:

Originally posted by Triple Nickel:
I've done multiple dyno sessions with MFI and NA big block chevy's 565 conventional head and 615 SR20 head. 7500 RPM and less, fuel pressure taken at the distribution block, have done it with cube valve on 565 and K valve on 615. Enderle 80A flow rated at 7.2 or 7.3 (not verified just what was on the tag when i bought it)

565, enderle cube BV, 38 nozzle jets, 80A pump, 1000 HP, 790 TQ, 105 main, 65 to 66 PSI, 7400 RPM.

615 enderle K valve, 38 nozzle jets, 80 A pump 1090 HP, 905 TQ, don't have the sheets with me but seems like pressures were similar main pill was 85 to 95 range, 7400 rpm.

509, enderle cube bv, 36 jets, 80 A pump, 850 HP 740 TQ, 70 PSI no high speed, 60 to 63 with high speed, 7400 RPM

I don't recall seeing any significant difference in the K valve vs. the cube. High speed is a little difficult to determine if and when its coming in and out because of limited instrumentation options on the dyno, actually utilized the oil pressure sensor for the fuel pressure indication and data recording. There's a guy on here, Mopar dude, has a dyno in/around Austin Texas area, i've talked with him hes a MFI guy, he should have plenty of info as his Dyno is setup specifically for testing and tuning on MFI systems so he's got plenty of data recording options and pressure indications.

That is Joe at Cen-Tex Dyno (SR4440 here)and he has been a huge help to me. It is about 3 hours each way but he is the only dyno guy I will use because he really knows mechanical injection and can get it dialed in a few hours what would take some others days to do. Joe knows what he is doing and if you listen to him you learn a lot.

If just reading one point the difference in cube and K BV will be hard to see. When reading both the pump and distribution block. There is more pressure drop thru the cube. Take a look at the design of the two and it is obvious why.

quote:

Originally posted by wideopen231:
If just reading one point the difference in cube and K BV will be hard to see. When reading both the pump and distribution block. There is more pressure drop thru the cube. Take a look at the design of the two and it is obvious why.

I may be mistaken here but at fairly low volume there is no pressure drop with the cube until the volume gets big enough that it becomes a restriction. Cube should feed up to 1800 HP N/A or maybe 1450 Hp Blown before it becomes any issue at all?

May have been the systems .Not on my cars but both had dat recorders and showed sizeable pressure differences between pump to bv and distribution block. Only conclusion was there had to be restrictions to overcome that caused differences. I would not say either was high flow. Both just injected N/A with 6.-- to 7 gpm pumps.

Tripple Nickle, . I have almost exactly same setup with .038 nozzles and low 100 mains on couple combos and do not think had pressure that low. Not a lot higher say 100 psi or so. Guess could be location reading or gauge, although 30 is sizeable difference to be gauges.

Thanks for the reply and information.

Point of thread is not to say one is better than other. As pointed out both work and its matter of choice on how you run your system. The .036 to .040 nozzels are kind of standard unless pushing for high pressure and testing fuel line and fittings.LOL

Yeah i've heard about the pressure drop but didn't really see any difference in how it behaved on the dyno vs. my other motors. Went with the K valve cause the 615 was a new build fpr the K valve. Was hoping for 1200hp on the initial build but the motor just wouldn't make any steam above 7300, figured the long runner on the dart tunnel ram was causing that. 615 didn't really like the high speed lean out on the dyno. Was 20hp down everytime i used it. Electronic lean out and i was turning it on with a rpm activated switch on the dyno so i tried all sorts of combinations when i did it big pill, small pill, 6400 rpm through 7000 RPM activation, it lost power everytime. 615 is lacking in camshaft vs other SR20 combos, i knew it initially when i built it and just didnt' want to deal with the lifter/spring shuffle. I hoped i could get close enough to 1200 to not matter with .900" lift but it didn't happen. One thing to note on this particular combination is it really only wants 1 main pill. dyno day it seemed to want an 85 main, no high speed, and was down on power with any other pill combination moving up or down in steps of 5 on main pill.

If you ask anyone an SR20 motor will never work on methanol much less injected, this one has been in the car for 4 years, not really killing it in the power range, runs ok 4.599 151 best at 2050 lbs 4 link dragster. Usually hangs out in the 4.70 to 4.60 range and reliable so far. Converter is a tad tight only flashing to 6100 or so, i know there's some ET there just gave up on it and started messing with other stuff.

Personally I don't see any difference in operation K vs. Cube, a little easier to work on K valve, packaging can be a problem depending on how you have it setup, dyno info on 615 is on a tunnel ram but i swapped that out for a edelbrock 632 manifold and 4 shooter from accufab. Changing the pill is now an issue cause the tool hits the bottom of the scoop pan so i had to cut it shorter, and its a pain in the rear sometimes. Cube valve would have been easier in this application. I like em both, K valve looks cooler on the side of an enderle hat. I had a theory that the 615 would make better steam up top on a shorter runner conventional intake manifold, i never went back to the dyno to verify either way. It made no difference on the track vs. the tunnel Dart tunnel ram and geradot injector. Shoulda kept the geradot injector cause it was flat out cool with the retangular blades, but sold it cause it sat around for a year or so.

The 565 (cube valve) Dart 355 Pro 2, 15:1 comrpession, 850 lift, was a different story on the dyno it liked the high speed and seemed to like lower timing (33 degrees). When we started dropping timing down from 36/38 window, the HS seemed to really help. I was able to pick that one up from 960/970 to 1001 within HS only.

And yes the guys name with the dyno in texas is Joe and he's on here at times, or use to be.

We nran a block mounted off of shutoff. Had all returns, poppets and jets. very easy to work on.

I can see a 615 not liking a long runner intake at higher rpm. Everyone runs long runner stuff in A/Fyel,then we nver see 7000 rpm maybe mid 6ooo's.

I would think a short fat runner would work and a bellmouth entry machined in would help too. Maybe 4 or at max 5" runner with a decent tapper. Hard to pick a number not knowing the port size.

Always wondered why SR20 head will as they say run on alcohol. Is it because the volume of fuel needed to feed it plus air is too much for the port's total volume or the chamber's flow characteristics.

I don't buy the idea about volume, for starters the fuel is not liquid in the port, its a vapor, methanol gets WAY cold when it vaporizes so its cooling the heck out of the charge which occupies less volume. I think people talking about fuel molecules taking up too much room in the intake port vs. gas are overlooking the basics and the cooling effect that Methanol provides. The thermodynamics/chemistry tells you this. Ratios are one thing but cooler denser charges are another. Its all vapor in the intake port unless its very low speed, if you are not vaporized in the port bad stuff happens, you cannot compress a liquid.

IMO on this 615 my issue is a function of how much compression it has, this motor is 16.0 range and coupled with a very small/efficient combustion chamber design. Its only 93 cc, so its like a big chief style combustion chamber and its supposed to be very efficient, not nitrous/power adder friendly. I think my issues around tuning window are primarily a function of the amount of compression ratio i have in it. I'm thinking it would like 14.0 or so range, but piston shelf options are limited to 23cc dome and 28 cc dome (diamond and wiseco) i'm not a fan of JE so those were my choices.

It's going to get a custom diamond blower piston and likely soften the combustion chambers then a 250 mini blower HH rotor. Next year's project. If I can't fit my desired ring stack with the stroke and rod i currently have i'm dropping back to a 598 and it will have a better ring stack. 1 mm / 1 mm / 3 mm ain't enough for methanol, mfi, and a blower. It does the deal NA injected but does smoke some at an idle, and vacuum drops down track. 4.625 stroke, 6.750 rod legnth, wrist pin height is up there so don't have a ton of piston skirt, plus really small ring stack. Getting the wrist pin lower and knocking some stroke out of it will help.

As far as pressures go i always heard from Jim at Enderle that we should target 100 PSI or less in NA applications. He did the sizing on all the motors prior to the 615 Geradot did the sizing and flow nozzle selections for my 615. I think Don had similar comments about pressures when going through the system design for the 615.

Thanks for info and thoughts on SR29 and alcohol.

quote:

Originally posted by Triple Nickel:
I've done multiple dyno sessions with MFI and NA big block chevy's 565 conventional head and 615 SR20 head. 7500 RPM and less, fuel pressure taken at the distribution block, have done it with cube valve on 565 and K valve on 615. Enderle 80A flow rated at 7.2 or 7.3 (not verified just what was on the tag when i bought it)

565, enderle cube BV, 38 nozzle jets, 80A pump, 1000 HP, 790 TQ, 105 main, 65 to 66 PSI, 7400 RPM.

615 enderle K valve, 38 nozzle jets, 80 A pump 1090 HP, 905 TQ, don't have the sheets with me but seems like pressures were similar main pill was 85 to 95 range, 7400 rpm.

509, enderle cube bv, 36 jets, 80 A pump, 850 HP 740 TQ, 70 PSI no high speed, 60 to 63 with high speed, 7400 RPM

I don't recall seeing any significant difference in the K valve vs. the cube. High speed is a little difficult to determine if and when its coming in and out because of limited instrumentation options on the dyno, actually utilized the oil pressure sensor for the fuel pressure indication and data recording. There's a guy on here, Mopar dude, has a dyno in/around Austin Texas area, i've talked with him hes a MFI guy, he should have plenty of info as his Dyno is setup specifically for testing and tuning on MFI systems so he's got plenty of data recording options and pressure indications.

Thanks for posting all your replies on this subject and keeping this thread on track.

Did you by any chance soften the SR20 chambers with a tapered squish?

Not the guy to listen to, he’s already burnt up at least 1 engine on the dyno with MFI.

Who Ed, Triple Nickel?