Racers,

I have raced with both gas and methanol and enjoyed success with both fuels. Of the two fuels, gas is overall less maintenance but methanol is easily controllable if you are consistent with the details. I see some racers who are slack about maintenance and those are the racers I see having problems.

Many of us are familiar with the both the pros and cons of methanol. For most, the pros outweigh the cons.

With the buildup of my Lamplighter Camaro on the horizon, for a number of reasons, I am leaning toward racing it with gas.

Just out of curiosity, let's brainstorm and the pros and cons of each fuel. To narrow the focus, let's leave the cost of each fuel out of the equation.

I don’t really do anything except drain at the end of season and oil the pump once a year. No top line. No problems. Methanol for 30 years

I've been running alcohol since the middle 90's on my Nova and have driven a few other cars with both and don't see any added maintenance running one over the other. I keep hearing about "added maintenance" due to running alcohol but have yet to see what anyone is talking about.

Alcohol has a larger tuning window.

Alcohol doesn't go bad sitting in a sealed drum. (I'd run year old alcohol in a heartbeat. I wouldn't put year old gas in my lawn mower let alone try to race with it)

Less time to cool down between rounds when hot lapping on alcohol.

Alcohol is just easier for me in every aspect. I hate gas carbs, too finicky.

Just my .02, take it for whats it's worth.

It’s not fair to leave cost out of the equation when that’s a large advantage to methanol. My cars burn one gallon of methanol per 1/4 mile run. At $3 per gallon that’s way cheaper than race gas. I’ve seen race gas from $12-25 per gallon, even if you burn twice as much methanol it’s still half the cost.

Other than the price, here are some thoughts:
Methanol: easier to control engine temp with idle mixture.
Methanol: less ET swing throughout the race day
Gasoline: more ET swing on race day, possibly more predictable swings though
Gasoline: easier to start when it’s cold out
Gasoline: less corrosive to parts, although I haven’t had any problems with methanol and I only drain and flush the system at the end of the year.
Methanol: safer. Less explosive. Last year a friends fuel line grounded out the battery shutoff and started a small fire. It melted the fuel line and methanol was dripping past onto the ground. It never caught fire. If it was gas we would have had a big problem.
Methanol: larger tuning window therefore I believe safer for the engine
Gasoline: possibly easier to store/doesn’t absorb moisture from the atmosphere
Gasoline: easier to keep the oil clean, although that is not an issue with methanol if the tuneup is right.

With methanol you can run mechanical fuel injection which in my opinion is much more simple and easier to tune than a carburetor.

Same as Bucky here. 16 years trouble free with no top lube, oil in the pump for the off season. I even run a fuel filter and pre-filter the fuel going in. Before installing the pump in the spring we spin the pump with a drill and a little gas to free up the oil in it.

I also am not buying the "added maintenance" of alcohol. If you have added maintenance then your tune-up is wrong.

Larry, sounds like you have your mind made up and favor gas over methanol. I think both are equally good with a carb. Most racers I know own two or more of these.

My mfi is over 30 yrs old (same pump, toilet, injectors, hoses) and only recently installed a newer style Barrel Valve, hoses and injectors. Primer Plus fuels the engine with 93 octane when not on the racing surface.

quote:

Originally posted by BD104X:
I also am not buying the "added maintenance" of alcohol. If you have added maintenance then your tune-up is wrong.

Dead on

I just converted although I didn't get to run this weekend. I did it for cooler running engine and fuel cost. That alone was worth it to me. Injection is much easier and simpler to tune, one main pill most of the time vs 8 jets, air bleeds, etc.

Those of you who are racing with mechanical injection, which system? Ron's? Other?

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Woodfin:
Those of you who are racing with mechanical injection, which system? Ron's? Other?

Terminator on a BBC for the past 18 years or so. I’ve had a few different engines and combos from 555-584ci and 950-1030ish in HP. I’ve always run a vacuum pump and have never run a gas primer system. Stage at at least 150 & try to get the motor to 200 before putting it away. I change the oil between 60-70 runs (always synthetic) and after 300+ runs can usually still see the marks left on the bearings by the dial bore gauge from checking clearances during assembly.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: BD104X,

We've been running Ron's for over 20 years. Started with the toilet system and switched to the Terminator. They work great. I have the primer plus on both cars. It's really nice to warm the car up, drive to the lanes, and drive back on pump gas. It saves a lot of alcohol and it warms the car up quick. I run vacuum pumps on both setups. Warm it up in the morning to 180, get around 150-160 in the lanes and heat up to 180-200 before I park it. I change the oil every other weekend, just to check everything. The oil always looks clean. James and Scott are very helpful, if you ever need anything.

In a properly built system (good hose, fittings etc) I don't think there is much different in the maintenance department between the fuels. I do feel that there is more maintenance with a carb compared to mechanical injection whether it is gas or alcohol although the alcohol carbs are a bit more maintenance. There are many more things to fail or go wrong with a carb also. Injection is simple and all parts are anodized, stainless steel or brass. Therefore less maintenance and less potential headaches. The only drawbacks (if you wanna call them that) are that people like to stick with what they know (carbs) and injection can be harder to start (there are primers for that but I'm also just beginning to test a couple of ideas to help this... stay tuned)

Scott

Scott, keep us in the loop about your stating ideas.

while limited knowledge on carbs and racing gas.Last time I ran either was about 1986. Have been MFI and alcohol since,

I don't get the extra maintenance part. Any race car will require maintenance. Hard to argue against alcohol for bracket racing. Less swing with weather changes.Less engine heat.Also have not run radiator since 1987.. Yes more fuel use and still cost less to run.

I find it funny that when we started running injection we where odd man out so to speak. I think three of us ran injection out of probably 60 or 70 locals running same tracks every weekend. Now days its50/50 or maybe 60/40 alcohol to gas and big portion of alkky is MFI of some sort. Me I like Enderle hat style. Simple and looks cool as hell. Stacks look cool,but can be little more trouble keeping them in sync.

IMO alky wins hands down.

I haven’t Touched my gas carbs for two years other than reset idle rpms a little when the cool fall air got here.
Alky fumes burns my eyes and hate when I am sitting by someone who sitting there running their motor for ever to get it warmed up in staging lanes.
I made four passes in one hour and last three were within thirty minutes, no heat problem here, transmission was another story.

Larry, you have sbc and if 4150 intake (2892 ?) consider using a Toilet (4”) if going Rons. Terminator is 4500. HERE'S an injector install photo link of my 2892.

The 4500 Terminator is shorter than the Toilet because it mimics a standard carb opening. But although Toilet is taller, it has less linkage and openings. Definitely 4” Toilet for sbc imho.

The 2892 intake opening, primer plus plate and 4” Toilet on my sbc were ported by the company I purchased the heads from HERE .

I use the UNI FILTER foam filter and it will be destroyed if a backfire occurs. Initial starting correctly in as low as 35* weather with Primer Plus using my method always starts without problems of this for me.

Just because the engine temp is 160* at initial warm up doesn’t mean it’s warmed up imo. I want the OIL temp to be minimum of 140*. In my engine this takes 10 minutes of idling (1600) on Primer Plus when 60* outside temp to achieve this with 6 qts of oil.

Pour some motor oil on your hand. Try to wash it off with methanol. Then wash it off with gas.

I appreciate everyone sharing ideas, information is a good thing. I will consider all.

We run a custom tunnel ram and an Enderle system set up by Spud Miller. I like the fact that the system runs at ~120 psi to atomizes the fuel better with the screened nozzles from Kinsler. It uses a 80a-1 pump at 6 gpm, K-valve, a Kinsler Hi Speed lean out, and we also have an electric lean out (converter saver) that is wired to the trans brake and 2 step to make it nice and crisp on the leave. This injection is so stupid simple a caveman can use it. I also feel the Enderle set up is more mainstream.

As far as fuel, all I ever run is VP M1 with the M2 top lube. I leave it in the aluminum tank and system all summer and no problems.

Tom

Ps I started with a 4” single blade from Enderle.

Spuds the man:

http://www.fuelinjectionent.com/