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Struggling with new alcohol setup
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DRR Trophy
posted
Hi guys,

Bought a brand new 1050 4500 from Patrick and Pro Systems at the beginning of the year. Been having a hell of a time getting much help from him as I've been trying to get this setup to work in a way that I think is acceptable.

This carb is on a 540bbc in a 3000# bracket car with a transbrake for what it matters.

I've got a 400gph electric pump with a return style regulator in the trunk set at 15psi. The secondary regulator that came with the carb has been set anywhere from 3 to 7.5psi at idle per Patrick. Timing is set to 36 degrees.

Having issues:
I always start the engine and wait 5-10 seconds before turning the pump on. Sometimes I can watch fuel come out of the front bowl vent. Other times it's ok.

I have to screw the idle speed screws all the way in to get 1100rpm idle speed.

The secondary throttle shaft sticks from time to time. It's not the linkage binding up, it seems to be the throttle shaft sticking or..?

The float bowls are both adjusted to mid-site glass level. I've noticed that the front bowl float level adjuster is set almost as low as it will go before the adjuster loses contact with the needle/seat assembly.

When it works properly, all seems good. Throttle response is crisp etc. When it doesn't work properly it obviously floods itself and dies and then I get frustrated.. The idle screws having to be in all the way seems wrong to me but I'm new to alcohol carbs and setup.

I've double/triple checked valve lash, timing and fuel pressures while working through this. I've had the entire fuel system apart (it's all brand new) looking for crap in the fuel system but haven't found anything.

I appreciate any ideas or other things to check.

thanks guys
 
Posts: 74 | Location: Oostburg WI | Registered: October 16, 2020Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
Picture of SCDIV1
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A poorly built carb.....no other way to describe it...

Send it to someone else or try to fix it yourself but that may be difficult if it's poorly calibrated

APD and many others build excellent Alcohol carbs...

I had APD do an alcohol carb conversion of a gas carb. and it was a 9375 1050

It was basically perfect right out of the box......never flooded, idle screws were responsive, no issues running an electric pump at 7+lbs and I did nothing other than lean it out in cooler weather on the idle screws to help build heat.
 
Posts: 2733 | Location: Where ever I am, I'm here and it's me | Registered: March 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Top Comp
Picture of Curly1
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First off since it is basically a new carb I would talk to the builder.

With that said you need to know if the venturies are leaking at idle. If they are you need to adjust your floats or change needle and seat. I think you already know what is going on as you noticed the idle mixture screws are all the way in. That is a clue.

It sounds to me like your floats are set too high or needle and seat bad causing it to draw fuel. It could be too much fuel pressure but first I would look at float level and needle and seat.

Take your float bowls off, turn it upside down and it should be about 3/8 inch gap between top of float and bowl. If not then start there.


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Posts: 4107 | Location: United States of Texas | Registered: April 02, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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What did you touch/adjust on this carb from as delivered/out of the box.

Patrick’s carbs are typically spot on out of the box and his customer service is excellent.

I ran and sold Pro systems carbs for about 15 years.
 
Posts: 13522 | Location: NJ | Registered: August 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Trophy
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quote:
Originally posted by Curly1:
First off since it is basically a new carb I would talk to the builder.

With that said you need to know if the venturies are leaking at idle. If they are you need to adjust your floats or change needle and seat. I think you already know what is going on as you noticed the idle mixture screws are all the way in. That is a clue.

It sounds to me like your floats are set too high or needle and seat bad causing it to draw fuel. It could be too much fuel pressure but first I would look at float level and needle and seat.

Take your float bowls off, turn it upside down and it should be about 3/8 inch gap between top of float and bowl. If not then start there.


Idle SPEED screws are all the way in. Mixture screws don't seem to make any difference at all if I'm honest. 1/2 turn out, 3 turns out I can't see or hear any difference in how the engine runs.
 
Posts: 74 | Location: Oostburg WI | Registered: October 16, 2020Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Trophy
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quote:
Originally posted by 1320racer:
What did you touch/adjust on this carb from as delivered/out of the box.


Absolutely nothing before talking to Patrick. Has been nothing but a headache since I took it out of the box.

He's had me change intermediate air bleeds so far and I've obviously had to adjust the float height, again per his direction.

Not trying to start any kind of flame war, I just want to get my stuff working so I can just get in and focus on driving and I'm not getting there with emails or phone calls.
 
Posts: 74 | Location: Oostburg WI | Registered: October 16, 2020Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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You’ll get no real help here unless you call help telling you to buy someone else’s carb or bashing pro systems. Work with Patrick to resolve your issue.
 
Posts: 13522 | Location: NJ | Registered: August 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post



DRR S/Pro
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If the float level is good and no fuel is dripping out visibly at idle and your idle screws are unresponsive, the carb is calibrated wrong....

Send it back.....
 
Posts: 2733 | Location: Where ever I am, I'm here and it's me | Registered: March 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Rich, it’s a 1050 alky dominator, Patrick has built hundreds of them if not thousands. I guarantee The calibration is not the issue.
 
Posts: 13522 | Location: NJ | Registered: August 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Trophy
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quote:
Originally posted by 1320racer:
You’ll get no real help here unless you call help telling you to buy someone else’s carb or bashing pro systems. Work with Patrick to resolve your issue.


Been trying and will continue to try.
 
Posts: 74 | Location: Oostburg WI | Registered: October 16, 2020Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
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No one Bashed Patrick James

From the mans posts it sounds as if there is something wrong with the carb and not of his doing.

If that's true or not I don't know....

One thing I know for certain is that I have listened to and read about more people having problems with alcohol carbs by far than a gas carb.

My experience with APD regarding an alky carb was all positive....
 
Posts: 2733 | Location: Where ever I am, I'm here and it's me | Registered: March 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Trophy
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I've never once had a pro systems carb that worked as it was advertised. I don't know if he just doesn't like me or what.

For methanol carburetor, Rupert is the only methanol carb I'll ever use again.
 
Posts: 119 | Location: Il,IL | Registered: March 22, 2021Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
Picture of CURTIS REED
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quote:
Originally posted by 1320racer:
I guarantee The calibration is not the issue.


You can’t do that and I believe he is much better with his gas stuff than his alcohol. A close friend bought one of his alcohol carbs and it was super lean on the idle circuit and generally ran bad overall. He made calls and even sent it back and I never came close to running as well as my carb I set up when we put it on his car. I’m still not trying to bash Patrick because all builders miss sometimes.

I will say it’s always tough diagnosing over the phone/internet. The bad part is he changed nothing and sent it back saying there was nothing wrong with the calibration.



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Posts: 3001 | Location: KIEFER, OK. | Registered: August 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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We have terminology problems in here. "Idle speed screws are turned all the way in to get 1100 rpm idle"?

Is this a Edelbrock carb or does the OP mean to say Idle mixture screws?

If he meant to say idle mixture screws, curly is right fuel is pooring down the throat off the booster rich. Needle seat stuck, float high, or too much fuel pressure at idle.

I never pay any attention to the sight glass, I take the bowl off turn it upside down to adjust float.
 
Posts: 9398 | Location: Madeira Beach Fl. | Registered: June 12, 2018Reply With QuoteReport This Post



DRR Trophy
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike Rietow:
We have terminology problems in here. "Idle speed screws are turned all the way in to get 1100 rpm idle"?

Is this a Edelbrock carb or does the OP mean to say Idle mixture screws?

If he meant to say idle mixture screws, curly is right fuel is pooring down the throat off the booster rich. Needle seat stuck, float high, or too much fuel pressure at idle.

I never pay any attention to the sight glass, I take the bowl off turn it upside down to adjust float.


The screws that you turn in or out to make idle speed adjustments. These open or close the throttle plates. not talking about mixture screws, talking about the actual idle screws. The coil springs wrapped around the screws are completely collapsed and I can't turn them anymore.

Not sure what else to call them other than idle speed adjuster screws.
 
Posts: 74 | Location: Oostburg WI | Registered: October 16, 2020Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Post a photo looking straight down at the carb.

Also post a photo of the paperwork showing jetting out of the box and one and two steps richer/leaner.

Post a couple photo's of this thing sitting on the intake from both sides too.
 
Posts: 9398 | Location: Madeira Beach Fl. | Registered: June 12, 2018Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Top Comp
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by CSRacing:
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Rietow:
We have terminology problems in here. "Idle speed screws are turned all the way in to get 1100 rpm idle"?

Is this a Edelbrock carb or does the OP mean to say Idle mixture screws?

If he meant to say idle mixture screws, curly is right fuel is pooring down the throat off the booster rich. Needle seat stuck, float high, or too much fuel pressure at idle.

I never pay any attention to the sight glass, I take the bowl off turn it upside down to adjust float.


The screws that you turn in or out to make idle speed adjustments. These open or close the throttle plates. not talking about mixture screws, talking about the actual idle screws. The coil springs wrapped around the screws are completely collapsed and I can't turn them anymore.

Not sure what else to call them other than idle speed adjuster screws.


Alright so it came with separate smaller idle mixture/air bleeds, and the manufacturer already had you install those to richen the idle correct? How many hole sizes different from the originals? And what's the number on the idle air bleed?
 
Posts: 9398 | Location: Madeira Beach Fl. | Registered: June 12, 2018Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Trophy
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Rietow:
quote:
Originally posted by CSRacing:
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Rietow:
We have terminology problems in here. "Idle speed screws are turned all the way in to get 1100 rpm idle"?

Is this a Edelbrock carb or does the OP mean to say Idle mixture screws?

If he meant to say idle mixture screws, curly is right fuel is pooring down the throat off the booster rich. Needle seat stuck, float high, or too much fuel pressure at idle.

I never pay any attention to the sight glass, I take the bowl off turn it upside down to adjust float.


The screws that you turn in or out to make idle speed adjustments. These open or close the throttle plates. not talking about mixture screws, talking about the actual idle screws. The coil springs wrapped around the screws are completely collapsed and I can't turn them anymore.

Not sure what else to call them other than idle speed adjuster screws.


Alright so it came with separate smaller idle mixture/air bleeds, and the manufacturer already had you install those to richen the idle correct? How many hole sizes different from the originals? And what's the number on the idle air bleed?


6 numbers BIGGER to lean it out. Went from a 60 to a 54 number drill.
 
Posts: 74 | Location: Oostburg WI | Registered: October 16, 2020Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Top Comp
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by CSRacing:
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Rietow:
quote:
Originally posted by CSRacing:
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Rietow:
We have terminology problems in here. "Idle speed screws are turned all the way in to get 1100 rpm idle"?

Is this a Edelbrock carb or does the OP mean to say Idle mixture screws?

If he meant to say idle mixture screws, curly is right fuel is pooring down the throat off the booster rich. Needle seat stuck, float high, or too much fuel pressure at idle.

I never pay any attention to the sight glass, I take the bowl off turn it upside down to adjust float.


The screws that you turn in or out to make idle speed adjustments. These open or close the throttle plates. not talking about mixture screws, talking about the actual idle screws. The coil springs wrapped around the screws are completely collapsed and I can't turn them anymore.

Not sure what else to call them other than idle speed adjuster screws.


Alright so it came with separate smaller idle mixture/air bleeds, and the manufacturer already had you install those to richen the idle correct? How many hole sizes different from the originals? And what's the number on the idle air bleed?


6 numbers BIGGER to lean it out. Went from a 60 to a 54 number drill.


So the manufacturer sent you extra blanks, you're drilling yourself?

Do you have a lean out valve you can manually open, on it, to build heat?
 
Posts: 9398 | Location: Madeira Beach Fl. | Registered: June 12, 2018Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Trophy
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Rietow:


So the manufacturer sent you extra blanks, you're drilling yourself?

Do you have a lean out valve you can manually open, on it, to build heat?


I'm drilling myself. I do not have a lean out valve.
 
Posts: 74 | Location: Oostburg WI | Registered: October 16, 2020Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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