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Teach me how to do this cheating stuff.
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quote:
Originally posted by Tom396:
quote:
Originally posted by Bucky:
That's already been answered Tom. Yes it is the same software and function. The idea is to map rpm on a normal run, and create targets for rpm for the entire run. And make these targets slightly less than a normal run. So it is always running restricted slightly by the timing. Ideally, the system has enough resolution to repeat within a tight margin....tighter than you could normally see on most competitive cars. This is all theory, but is exactly why the slew rate controllers were outlawed for bracket racing. But frankly, I don't know anyone who has shown how good the resolution is on the slew controllers. It isn't exactly something that those using it want to show off. And not something that those who aren't, want to invest in or be connected to. I thought I remember a contributor here....thought it was Jok, writing an article about slew rate. And I thought a test was to follow. I never saw the follow up.
So it exists, and just has to be hidden.
But, what a lot don't realize is that the msd's aren't the only ones that have slew rate in their software. I really don't know what can be done to police this.


So even the very best of the best of these devices does not compensate for a gust of wind or a sudden change in air density (or any other factor outside of traction), is that correct? Take care. Tom Worthington


Well, the theory is that it would indeed. If the air density gets much better, the engine is limited by running the dots. So it runs the same. If the air gets worse, you are still covered, because your dots are set below what you know it can run. It isn't used to control rpm due to loss of traction. It's for duplicating the rpm at every part of the run regardless of traction, wind (to some extent) or air quality. They were not made illegal because of traction alone.


Foxtrot Juliet Bravo
 
Posts: 6421 | Location: Illinois | Registered: July 08, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Hammond:

You mean this article.
http://etdragracing.com/magazi...racing-without-rules


Well that article definitely answered some of my questions. I did notice that Jok stated the big buck events were becoming less popular (2014). That certainly seems to have not continued to be the case. I'd say they were more popular now than ever before. Take care. Tom Worthington


If it seems that bracket racing has gotten too expensive for you, maybe you are just doing it wrong.
 
Posts: 1240 | Location: Rocky Mount, NC | Registered: December 01, 1999Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Bucky:


Well, the theory is that it would indeed. If the air density gets much better, the engine is limited by running the dots. So it runs the same. If the air gets worse, you are still covered, because your dots are set below what you know it can run. It isn't used to control rpm due to loss of traction. It's for duplicating the rpm at every part of the run regardless of traction, wind (to some extent) or air quality. They were not made illegal because of traction alone.


Gotcha. Thanks to reading that article Richard linked to, I have a much better understanding. Take care. Tom Worthington


If it seems that bracket racing has gotten too expensive for you, maybe you are just doing it wrong.
 
Posts: 1240 | Location: Rocky Mount, NC | Registered: December 01, 1999Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
Picture of Mike Beck
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quote:
Originally posted by Tom396:
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Beck:
(snip)
Then you have people like me that do electronics and software for a living that could make their own stuff that would be virtually undetectable........
(snip)


If you designed your own device, could it be capable of more than just controlling traction loss? Take care. Tom Worthington


In Bracket Racing, I think traction issues are the bottom of our list of issues to deal with.

We need to know where on the track we are and how long it took to get there. So, if you make your combo dead-hook you can have a device that will determine whether you are getting to a pre-determined distance too quickly or too slowly and modify timing to change power to compensate. Sounds like a "Matty Box" doesn't it.

If you really want to cheat make something see the tree...........

I would rather crash my car and die a nice slow death in a roaring fire than ever cheat to win. I don't even play games at the starting line, though I have seen PLENTY of people try to play them with me. Does not bother me a single bit.

I would say the year I was doing chemo at the track was the best year of racing I ever had. I hit the tree almost identically all the time, was amazing. I did leave 300rpm higher due to the slower R/T's caused by that poison, but I always hit it the same (within .01). If only I could have felt the bottom of my left foot I would have been un-stoppable that year! I was afraid to hit the brakes in the top end and sometimes staging was difficult. (Footbraker!)
 
Posts: 1444 | Location: South River, NJ | Registered: June 19, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
If you really want to cheat make something see the tree...........I would rather crash my car and die a nice slow death in a roaring fire than ever cheat to win. I don't even play games at the starting line, though I have seen PLENTY of people try to play them with me. Does not bother me a single bit.

Same as I said earlier, but ole woody pounced all over me, seems it hit a nerve with him, maybe someone pissed in his cereal that morning.
Hell - We are getting ready to send an object to the nearest star, it will take 20 years to get there and 4 years for the laser beam to get the pictures back to earth.

But no one is smart enough to have a light beam trip a switch. Give me a break.
I don't know anyone that I suspect is doing this, all I am saying is that it for sure could be done and if it was the engineer part that trigged woody, you can take that out as it would not be all that hard.
Ole Woody probably does not even believe we landed on the moon.
 
Posts: 268 | Location: Irving, Texas | Registered: March 24, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Tom396:
quote:
Originally posted by J178RED:
Some people just like stirring The pot ! I’ve got a laser light reader That gives you trip zip lights every time, really it works ....LOL Laughing Hard


Just a second. Speaking of laser pointers, could one be pointed into the sensor in the opponent's lane, and used to manipulate the opponent's reaction time? Maybe even from up in the stands or against the fence, aligned with the starting line? Take care. Tom Worthington


Since no one has responded to this, can I assume it is completely unfeasible? Take care. Tom Worthington


If it seems that bracket racing has gotten too expensive for you, maybe you are just doing it wrong.
 
Posts: 1240 | Location: Rocky Mount, NC | Registered: December 01, 1999Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Mopar Traitor:
quote:
If you really want to cheat make something see the tree...........I would rather crash my car and die a nice slow death in a roaring fire than ever cheat to win. I don't even play games at the starting line, though I have seen PLENTY of people try to play them with me. Does not bother me a single bit.

Same as I said earlier, but ole woody pounced all over me, seems it hit a nerve with him, maybe someone pissed in his cereal that morning.
Hell - We are getting ready to send an object to the nearest star, it will take 20 years to get there and 4 years for the laser beam to get the pictures back to earth.

But no one is smart enough to have a light beam trip a switch. Give me a break.
I don't know anyone that I suspect is doing this, all I am saying is that it for sure could be done and if it was the engineer part that trigged woody, you can take that out as it would not be all that hard.
Ole Woody probably does not even believe we landed on the moon.


I agree with the possibility. But frankly, the software stuff available, and legal on the market NOW and in cars NOW are where my bigger concern is. There are people who have this ability with the equipment they own that don't even know about it.
But as I said before, I don't know personally what the resolution is for these. Accurate to .1, or .005?


Foxtrot Juliet Bravo
 
Posts: 6421 | Location: Illinois | Registered: July 08, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post



DRR Sportsman
Picture of Richard Hammond
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bucky:
quote:
Originally posted by Mopar Traitor:
quote:
If you really want to cheat make something see the tree...........I would rather crash my car and die a nice slow death in a roaring fire than ever cheat to win. I don't even play games at the starting line, though I have seen PLENTY of people try to play them with me. Does not bother me a single bit.

Same as I said earlier, but ole woody pounced all over me, seems it hit a nerve with him, maybe someone pissed in his cereal that morning.
Hell - We are getting ready to send an object to the nearest star, it will take 20 years to get there and 4 years for the laser beam to get the pictures back to earth.

But no one is smart enough to have a light beam trip a switch. Give me a break.
I don't know anyone that I suspect is doing this, all I am saying is that it for sure could be done and if it was the engineer part that trigged woody, you can take that out as it would not be all that hard.
Ole Woody probably does not even believe we landed on the moon.


I agree with the possibility. But frankly, the software stuff available, and legal on the market NOW and in cars NOW are where my bigger concern is. There are people who have this ability with the equipment they own that don't even know about it.
But as I said before, I don't know personally what the resolution is for these. Accurate to .1, or .005?


What exactly are you worried about? Be specific and say what it is you think shouldn't be legal.
 
Posts: 434 | Location: miami | Registered: September 07, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
What exactly are you worried about? Be specific and say what it is you think shouldn't be legal.


I was specific at the top of this page. Not worry frankly. I know that running the dots can be done with products other than the msd that is outlawed. Like several of the engine management ecu's.


Foxtrot Juliet Bravo
 
Posts: 6421 | Location: Illinois | Registered: July 08, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Bill Koski
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The best I ever did was when I lucked out and won enough that my fellow racers determined I was cheating, a few actually accused the track of cheating for me, sadly that only lasted a large portion of one year.


TAKE IT TO THE BANK!!!!!
Later, Bill Koski
 
Posts: 11008 | Location: LAS VEGAS. NEVADA, US of A | Registered: December 03, 1999Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of Richard Hammond
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bucky:
quote:
What exactly are you worried about? Be specific and say what it is you think shouldn't be legal.


I was specific at the top of this page. Not worry frankly. I know that running the dots can be done with products other than the msd that is outlawed. Like several of the engine management ecu's.


So what exactly is illegal about running the dots?
 
Posts: 434 | Location: miami | Registered: September 07, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Hammond:
quote:
Originally posted by Bucky:
quote:
What exactly are you worried about? Be specific and say what it is you think shouldn't be legal.


I was specific at the top of this page. Not worry frankly. I know that running the dots can be done with products other than the msd that is outlawed. Like several of the engine management ecu's.


So what exactly is illegal about running the dots?


This slew rate/traction control feature was noted as the reason that the MSD boxes that had them were made illegal for bracket racing. I don't have a rule book in front of me and I don't know if it addressed it specifically. But why would they outlaw a product that has it, because it has it, and allow it with other products? That goes against the spirit of what they were trying to accomplish it seems to me.

What are you getting at with your questions? Is there something you don't understand, or are you making a point? If you are trying to make a point, please just say it.


Foxtrot Juliet Bravo
 
Posts: 6421 | Location: Illinois | Registered: July 08, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Goob
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Some years back there was an outfit in Kalifornia selling a "vehicle reaction time tester", which consisted of a "tree reader" that launches the car off the sensor. The sensor rig was pretty bulky so that it couldn't be hidden....but now I can't find hide nor hair of the device.
Anyone else remember seeing that deal??


"Despite the high cost of living, it remains popular."
Dave Cook
N375
 
Posts: 1703 | Location: Indy | Registered: November 21, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Richard Hammond
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bucky:
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Hammond:
quote:
Originally posted by Bucky:
quote:
What exactly are you worried about? Be specific and say what it is you think shouldn't be legal.


I was specific at the top of this page. Not worry frankly. I know that running the dots can be done with products other than the msd that is outlawed. Like several of the engine management ecu's.


So what exactly is illegal about running the dots?


This slew rate/traction control feature was noted as the reason that the MSD boxes that had them were made illegal for bracket racing. I don't have a rule book in front of me and I don't know if it addressed it specifically. But why would they outlaw a product that has it, because it has it, and allow it with other products? That goes against the spirit of what they were trying to accomplish it seems to me.

What are you getting at with your questions? Is there something you don't understand, or are you making a point? If you are trying to make a point, please just say it.


Just curious as to what other boxes have traction control capabilities. I haven’t researched anything other than what MSD has.
 
Posts: 434 | Location: miami | Registered: September 07, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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quote:
Just curious as to what other boxes have traction control capabilities. I haven’t researched anything other than what MSD has.


Got ya. I don't know of any ignition only systems with it. But EFI engine management systems are a different animal.
I know some folks consider riding the dots different than slew control. They work differently to do the same thing IMO. The last thing I want if for NHRA to come along and start outlawing products. But certainly they could work with the manufacturers to make some assurance or way to prove that certain features are disabled.

When the digital 7 msd's came on the market, I bought one with all the features I could find right off since I needed an ignition for a new car anyhow. A few months later, NHRA puts them on the naughty list. So here I am stuck with an illegal box that msd didn't want back. So I put that back as a spare, and bought a new 7 box without the slew. Of course, the digital 7 has proven to be bulletproof for me, and I never needed the spare. That seemed unfair to me. But then I don't know how else they could have handled it. I even asked msd if they could remove the features from my box. I'm guessing that isn't simple and they weren't interested.

There are some real grey areas here that ought to be addressed. I think some folks could be exploiting the overall ignorance of products. And some folks could unfairly be accused of cheating for having products with illegal capabilities that they are either not using or are completely unaware of.

And again, these are only effective in cheating in theory from my seat in the bleachers. I have never seen anything or anybody say that it can actually control ET accurately enough to be beneficial to bracket racers. I'm not even sure the msd boxes needed to be outlawed.


Foxtrot Juliet Bravo
 
Posts: 6421 | Location: Illinois | Registered: July 08, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Lenny5160
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Goob:
Some years back there was an outfit in Kalifornia selling a "vehicle reaction time tester", which consisted of a "tree reader" that launches the car off the sensor. The sensor rig was pretty bulky so that it couldn't be hidden....but now I can't find hide nor hair of the device.
Anyone else remember seeing that deal??


I remember the vehicle reaction time tester, but my recollection is that it would measure time between transbrake release and a certain 'G' threshold of vehicle movement. Nothing to do with a tree reading.


Tony Leonard
 
Posts: 3172 | Location: Inver Grove Heights, MN | Registered: March 18, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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