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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Beard:


Here are my results from Holston's Practice Tree Showdown in February. (snip)


Those are some pretty impressive numbers and I think they make a statement. As far as I know, no one has ever had the nerve to suggest there is cheating at a practice tree race. Smile Take care. Tom Worthington


If it seems that bracket racing has gotten too expensive for you, maybe you are just doing it wrong.
 
Posts: 1240 | Location: Rocky Mount, NC | Registered: December 01, 1999Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Mike Beck
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quote:
Originally posted by markemark:
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Beck:
quote:
Originally posted by Tom396:
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Beck:
And....... If you happen to be running EFI and using a system from FAST, there are two different units, a black box and a red box. One is legal in all classes, the other is not due to the built-in traction control. Nothing to stop someone from swapping guts though.......


Does the one with traction control really change much, unless you have a traction issue? Take care. Tom Worthington


Nope. Same as the MSD 7531, no traction issues, no advantage to using one. I doubt it's accurate enough to "ride the dots" and make the car/dragster run the exact dial all the time.....

Get something to "see" the tree to control the start of the race, I think that's where most of the race takes place. Seems a lot of cars/dragsters don't have a big issue repeating in the 1/8, the 1/4 is a little different, especially with wind.


And what about the Davis unit that’ll plug into Dominator EFI? Does this set any tattle tale of prior use?


You can use the Davis Box as an add-on to the Holley system, or simply use their traction control device.

Either way, it will be in the Global Folder (which has ALL the tuning params). So, unless someone doesn't datalog the run, and uses a small notebook computer or one of the Holley Touchscreen Displays to swap a "normal" setup into there after a pass, anyone with a laptop and the knowledge of the Holley EFI system could tell there was some "cheating" going on!
 
Posts: 1444 | Location: South River, NJ | Registered: June 19, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Beck:


You can use the Davis Box as an add-on to the Holley system, or simply use their traction control device.

Either way, it will be in the Global Folder (which has ALL the tuning params). So, unless someone doesn't datalog the run, and uses a small notebook computer or one of the Holley Touchscreen Displays to swap a "normal" setup into there after a pass, anyone with a laptop and the knowledge of the Holley EFI system could tell there was some "cheating" going on!


Is the Davis Box a "slew rate control"? Take care. Tom Worthington


If it seems that bracket racing has gotten too expensive for you, maybe you are just doing it wrong.
 
Posts: 1240 | Location: Rocky Mount, NC | Registered: December 01, 1999Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Tom396:
Is the Davis Box a "slew rate control"? Take care. Tom Worthington


Yes,Powerful and self-learning
 
Posts: 2500 | Location: 53056 | Registered: December 30, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by markemark:
quote:
Originally posted by Tom396:
Is the Davis Box a "slew rate control"? Take care. Tom Worthington


Yes,Powerful and self-learning


Can it do more than control traction? Take care. Tom Worthington


If it seems that bracket racing has gotten too expensive for you, maybe you are just doing it wrong.
 
Posts: 1240 | Location: Rocky Mount, NC | Registered: December 01, 1999Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Tom396:
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Beard:


Here are my results from Holston's Practice Tree Showdown in February. (snip)


Those are some pretty impressive numbers and I think they make a statement. As far as I know, no one has ever had the nerve to suggest there is cheating at a practice tree race. Smile Take care. Tom Worthington


I have never heard of cheating in a practice tree race either.

I counted 10 redlights in 51 runs or almost 20% red.

Definitely not cheating.
 
Posts: 1169 | Location: Elgin,IL | Registered: February 08, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by 442OLDS:
I have never heard of cheating in a practice tree race either.

I counted 10 redlights in 51 runs or almost 20% red.

Definitely not cheating.


And how do those foul start numbers at practice tree events compare to actual on track performances? Take care. Tom Worthington


If it seems that bracket racing has gotten too expensive for you, maybe you are just doing it wrong.
 
Posts: 1240 | Location: Rocky Mount, NC | Registered: December 01, 1999Reply With QuoteReport This Post



DRR Elite
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Beck:
quote:
Originally posted by markemark:
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Beck:
quote:
Originally posted by Tom396:
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Beck:
And....... If you happen to be running EFI and using a system from FAST, there are two different units, a black box and a red box. One is legal in all classes, the other is not due to the built-in traction control. Nothing to stop someone from swapping guts though.......


Does the one with traction control really change much, unless you have a traction issue? Take care. Tom Worthington


Nope. Same as the MSD 7531, no traction issues, no advantage to using one. I doubt it's accurate enough to "ride the dots" and make the car/dragster run the exact dial all the time.....

Get something to "see" the tree to control the start of the race, I think that's where most of the race takes place. Seems a lot of cars/dragsters don't have a big issue repeating in the 1/8, the 1/4 is a little different, especially with wind.


And what about the Davis unit that’ll plug into Dominator EFI? Does this set any tattle tale of prior use?


You can use the Davis Box as an add-on to the Holley system, or simply use their traction control device.

Either way, it will be in the Global Folder (which has ALL the tuning params). So, unless someone doesn't datalog the run, and uses a small notebook computer or one of the Holley Touchscreen Displays to swap a "normal" setup into there after a pass, anyone with a laptop and the knowledge of the Holley EFI system could tell there was some "cheating" going on!


To me, this is the area where we have the greatest exposure to rules infractions. So, all we need is someone with a laptop and knowledge of this particular software? How many brands of ecu's with different software can you come up with just off the top of your head? I can think of more than a handful. So tech folks need a laptop with all the different softwares to check this stuff. People have been claiming cheating for decades. But the efi software has come a long way in the past 5. Really it's up to the user to have the determine what features are not legal and for them to have the integrity to not use them.


Foxtrot Juliet Bravo
 
Posts: 6421 | Location: Illinois | Registered: July 08, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Bucky:
To me, this is the area where we have the greatest exposure to rules infractions. So, all we need is someone with a laptop and knowledge of this particular software? How many brands of ecu's with different software can you come up with just off the top of your head? I can think of more than a handful. So tech folks need a laptop with all the different softwares to check this stuff. People have been claiming cheating for decades. But the efi software has come a long way in the past 5. Really it's up to the user to have the determine what features are not legal and for them to have the integrity to not use them.


Bucky, I gotta ask. Is any of this software doing anything other than controlling a traction issue? From what I'm reading, it kinda sounds like that is all it is. And if all it is doing is taking away power to control a spin, isn't that going to adversely impact an ET prediction also? Take care. Tom Worthington


If it seems that bracket racing has gotten too expensive for you, maybe you are just doing it wrong.
 
Posts: 1240 | Location: Rocky Mount, NC | Registered: December 01, 1999Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Woodrow, when you used to say you had a 357 Magnum in your car, I thought that was the engine size. Big Grin
 
Posts: 528 | Location: Southeast | Registered: March 14, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Woodrow, any truth to the “story I’ve heard” about you having a big rock in the back of the car with a glued on cellphone antenna on it?? If so care to share the story?? Big Grin Big Grin
 
Posts: 115 | Location: 2008 IHRA SSS No Box WC | Registered: June 23, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Mike Beck
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Tom396:
quote:
Originally posted by Bucky:
To me, this is the area where we have the greatest exposure to rules infractions. So, all we need is someone with a laptop and knowledge of this particular software? How many brands of ecu's with different software can you come up with just off the top of your head? I can think of more than a handful. So tech folks need a laptop with all the different softwares to check this stuff. People have been claiming cheating for decades. But the efi software has come a long way in the past 5. Really it's up to the user to have the determine what features are not legal and for them to have the integrity to not use them.


Bucky, I gotta ask. Is any of this software doing anything other than controlling a traction issue? From what I'm reading, it kinda sounds like that is all it is. And if all it is doing is taking away power to control a spin, isn't that going to adversely impact an ET prediction also? Take care. Tom Worthington


Yes, it is designed to control a traction issue. The heads-up cars use it. They don't care about running the same ET, just want to get to the finish line before the other lane does!

I doubt any track could provide a tech person that could go through each and every EFI system out there to determine if something "funky" in happening inside their ECM.....

Then you have people like me that do electronics and software for a living that could make their own stuff that would be virtually undetectable........

I still think the entire race at high-dollar events takes place at the starting line. Most of those cars/dragsters can run within a few thou in the 1/8 pass after pass. The 1/4 is a different story, but still, I would bet the most significant variation in the package round to round occurs at the starting line.
 
Posts: 1444 | Location: South River, NJ | Registered: June 19, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Top Comp
Picture of Michael Beard
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Tom396:
And how do those foul start numbers at practice tree events compare to actual on track performances? Take care. Tom Worthington


Practice tree races are a different animal. You're basically set up to be perfect, particularly in an event like this that was Best 2 out of 3... gives you some wiggle room to be more aggressive. Note that 6 of the 10 reds were -.002 or -.001. "In real life", you'd probably adjust at least another .005 into it, if not .010 or more for bottom bulb or footbrake racing. The last year that I did full-season stats, my reds were 11%. Still too high. I'd like to see it around 6%, but my car isn't where I'd like to be. Made some changes over the winter to try to get it to react better. Real-life green light average is usually .017-.020 for a season.

At the Christmas Tree Extravaganza practice tree race in December, I got to Rnd 6 of the Bottom Bulb race, and was runner-up in the Top Bulb race leaving off the bottom. 10.9% red, .011 green light average. I did try leaving off the top once and was .055. LOL Went back to the bottom and was .003, .004, .001, .000. I did have a .040 in the semis where I COMPLETELY failed to let go of the bottom, and just got lucky that the other guy was red. I did the same thing late in a couple of other practice tree races, too. smh... Brain's gettin' rusty. Roll Eyes

I'm proud of my stats, but the important takeaway is that there are numerous guys that are demonstrably BETTER. There are some incredible talents out there. That's just how our sport has evolved, and the serious level of training that some people do.

I highly recommend Luke Bogacki's ThisIsBracketRacing Offseason Practice Tree Challenge. It's a free facebook group. They do two weeks of drills for bottom bulb, and two weeks of drills for top bulb. It WILL make you better. It's done for the season, but you can go back and review any of the drills from this year as well as previous years.

www.facebook.com/groups/1639204593011445/


__
Michael Beard - staginglight@gmail.com
Staging Light Graphic Design, Printing & Event Marketing

 
Posts: 5738 | Location: Columbus, OH | Registered: December 15, 1999Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Beck:
(snip)
Then you have people like me that do electronics and software for a living that could make their own stuff that would be virtually undetectable........
(snip)


If you designed your own device, could it be capable of more than just controlling traction loss? Take care. Tom Worthington


If it seems that bracket racing has gotten too expensive for you, maybe you are just doing it wrong.
 
Posts: 1240 | Location: Rocky Mount, NC | Registered: December 01, 1999Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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quote:
Originally posted by LIZZARD:
Woodrow, any truth to the “story I’ve heard” about you having a big rock in the back of the car with a glued on cellphone antenna on it?? If so care to share the story?? Big Grin Big Grin


It wasn't a rock. It was a big solid round piece of steel. Underwood glued a cell phone antenna on it.


I used to be a people person, but people ruined that.
 
Posts: 225 | Location: Usually home | Registered: January 27, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Beard:

Practice tree races are a different animal. You're basically set up to be perfect, particularly in an event like this that was Best 2 out of 3... gives you some wiggle room to be more aggressive. Note that 6 of the 10 reds were -.002 or -.001. "In real life", you'd probably adjust at least another .005 into it, if not .010 or more for bottom bulb or footbrake racing. The last year that I did full-season stats, my reds were 11%. Still too high. I'd like to see it around 6%, but my car isn't where I'd like to be. Made some changes over the winter to try to get it to react better. Real-life green light average is usually .017-.020 for a season.

At the Christmas Tree Extravaganza practice tree race in December, I got to Rnd 6 of the Bottom Bulb race, and was runner-up in the Top Bulb race leaving off the bottom. 10.9% red, .011 green light average. I did try leaving off the top once and was .055. LOL Went back to the bottom and was .003, .004, .001, .000. I did have a .040 in the semis where I COMPLETELY failed to let go of the bottom, and just got lucky that the other guy was red. I did the same thing late in a couple of other practice tree races, too. smh... Brain's gettin' rusty. Roll Eyes

I'm proud of my stats, but the important takeaway is that there are numerous guys that are demonstrably BETTER. There are some incredible talents out there. That's just how our sport has evolved, and the serious level of training that some people do.

I highly recommend Luke Bogacki's ThisIsBracketRacing Offseason Practice Tree Challenge. It's a free facebook group. They do two weeks of drills for bottom bulb, and two weeks of drills for top bulb. It WILL make you better. It's done for the season, but you can go back and review any of the drills from this year as well as previous years.

www.facebook.com/groups/1639204593011445/


Michael, my takeaway from that is still that folks are demonstrating an ability to do the same thing in their car that they are doing on a practice tree. Maybe not exactly the same numbers, but close enough make the case for them to be legit in the car, too.

I'm definitely going to give that site a look. Hopefully, I can use my own pocket practice tree with those drills. Smile Take care. Tom Worthington


If it seems that bracket racing has gotten too expensive for you, maybe you are just doing it wrong.
 
Posts: 1240 | Location: Rocky Mount, NC | Registered: December 01, 1999Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Woodrow won more races with knowledge and ability than all the others combined could win cheating with the Matty boxes ... fact ...lol
 
Posts: 1245 | Location: middle georgia | Registered: July 20, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Tom396:
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Beck:
(snip)
Then you have people like me that do electronics and software for a living that could make their own stuff that would be virtually undetectable........
(snip)


If you designed your own device, could it be capable of more than just controlling traction loss? Take care. Tom Worthington


That's already been answered Tom. Yes it is the same software and function. The idea is to map rpm on a normal run, and create targets for rpm for the entire run. And make these targets slightly less than a normal run. So it is always running restricted slightly by the timing. Ideally, the system has enough resolution to repeat within a tight margin....tighter than you could normally see on most competitive cars. This is all theory, but is exactly why the slew rate controllers were outlawed for bracket racing. But frankly, I don't know anyone who has shown how good the resolution is on the slew controllers. It isn't exactly something that those using it want to show off. And not something that those who aren't, want to invest in or be connected to. I thought I remember a contributor here....thought it was Jok, writing an article about slew rate. And I thought a test was to follow. I never saw the follow up.
So it exists, and just has to be hidden.
But, what a lot don't realize is that the msd's aren't the only ones that have slew rate in their software. I really don't know what can be done to police this.


Foxtrot Juliet Bravo
 
Posts: 6421 | Location: Illinois | Registered: July 08, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bucky:
That's already been answered Tom. Yes it is the same software and function. The idea is to map rpm on a normal run, and create targets for rpm for the entire run. And make these targets slightly less than a normal run. So it is always running restricted slightly by the timing. Ideally, the system has enough resolution to repeat within a tight margin....tighter than you could normally see on most competitive cars. This is all theory, but is exactly why the slew rate controllers were outlawed for bracket racing. But frankly, I don't know anyone who has shown how good the resolution is on the slew controllers. It isn't exactly something that those using it want to show off. And not something that those who aren't, want to invest in or be connected to. I thought I remember a contributor here....thought it was Jok, writing an article about slew rate. And I thought a test was to follow. I never saw the follow up.
So it exists, and just has to be hidden.
But, what a lot don't realize is that the msd's aren't the only ones that have slew rate in their software. I really don't know what can be done to police this.


So even the very best of the best of these devices does not compensate for a gust of wind or a sudden change in air density (or any other factor outside of traction), is that correct? Take care. Tom Worthington


If it seems that bracket racing has gotten too expensive for you, maybe you are just doing it wrong.
 
Posts: 1240 | Location: Rocky Mount, NC | Registered: December 01, 1999Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of Richard Hammond
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bucky:
quote:
Originally posted by Tom396:
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Beck:
(snip)
Then you have people like me that do electronics and software for a living that could make their own stuff that would be virtually undetectable........
(snip)


If you designed your own device, could it be capable of more than just controlling traction loss? Take care. Tom Worthington


That's already been answered Tom. Yes it is the same software and function. The idea is to map rpm on a normal run, and create targets for rpm for the entire run. And make these targets slightly less than a normal run. So it is always running restricted slightly by the timing. Ideally, the system has enough resolution to repeat within a tight margin....tighter than you could normally see on most competitive cars. This is all theory, but is exactly why the slew rate controllers were outlawed for bracket racing. But frankly, I don't know anyone who has shown how good the resolution is on the slew controllers. It isn't exactly something that those using it want to show off. And not something that those who aren't, want to invest in or be connected to. I thought I remember a contributor here....thought it was Jok, writing an article about slew rate. And I thought a test was to follow. I never saw the follow up.
So it exists, and just has to be hidden.
But, what a lot don't realize is that the msd's aren't the only ones that have slew rate in their software. I really don't know what can be done to police this.


You mean this article.
http://etdragracing.com/magazi...racing-without-rules
 
Posts: 434 | Location: miami | Registered: September 07, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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