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615 Dart 20 degree, tunnel ram, Enderle Injection, burned piston
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DRR Top Comp
Picture of wideopen231
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Koehler:
Mark,
That saying dates back to the 60s and even the 70s.
At that point in time a BBC with 4" stroke and 4.375 bore was "BIG" and had a hard time creating 13.8:1.
Small, shallow chamber heads had not even been dreamed up yet.

Look where we are today with strokes and compression is in diesel territory.

I have never sat down and done the deep math but I suspect part of the problem is that alky requires more volume space than gas. We may have inadvertently created a cork.

I might also add that feedback from those that got past the "gas makes more power" mantra stumbling block and did the previously mentioned procedures and tuning would invariably find that missing power.


Agree 100%, We found that dropping compression on blown deal actually made lots more power.Everyones reasoning was it allowed more room in cylinder for entering mixture.

On injected deal. If you have a very small area for the fuel/air mixture you may not be getting all the fuel you think in and have lean condition because of it,Where plug reading come in.They have gap in reading whats happening in chamber.Best computers only getting readings part of the time.

I know its only a program and not real world. If you run a combo thru program like desktop dyno you will see that gains in power are very little above 14:1. As stated few times tunning window narrows,car will require more adjustment in smaller weather changes and you spend good amount of money to get the headache with not much reward.Think of it as getting married and spending 100k on wedding.




America home of free. Brought to you by 2nd amendment.
 
Posts: 4130 | Location: Greensboro NC | Registered: May 24, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by BJs Wild Ride:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Koehler:

"You will net more HP from the same jet on all Gas."


I’ve never seen an alky nitrous combo put down an impressive number for a given jet unless you’re talking about just a little nitrous.

Maybe Scott can share JMOs T/D combo but I bet it doesn’t knock your socks off compared to what others have ran on gas with that same pill.


I assume you mean me. I will not be debating this can of worms. Besides that was almost 10 years ago now.

Scott
 
Posts: 1838 | Location: Illinois | Registered: August 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Koehler:
BJ,
That is the popular I have never reply.
What I am asking everyone to do is step back and analyze that sentence.
What do you see/deduce/suspect/conclude?


Ok, since Scott doesn’t want to play...

At first I just figured it was people not knowing how to tune. But then JMO ran it and be definetely knows how to tune. He ran fast at the time (6.60??), but i got the impression he hit a wall there and that’s not very fast 10 years later. So, was there more there? Has anybody else gone faster? What is the fastest alky/alky 632 out there? Has anybody ever lit a 36 in both kits on alky/alky? That should run easy 6.30s or better in a digger, but I’ve never heard of anything close to that
 
Posts: 928 | Location: my own little world | Registered: July 20, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
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It's been a while but I have seen ALKY MFI with Alky NOS systems work well! Meaning they performed as well as any gas system. Talking in the 100 to 300 HP range. The biggest issue with using MFI and NOS is the tuners need to understand that MFI is stupid!!!!!! and carb's are smart! The NOS manufacturer's should also be aware of this and provide a warning that using their base recommended tune ups won't work with MFI! MFI just knows pump speed! which translates to fuel pressure which equals fuel being delivered to the motor, period! Once the NOS system is activated the added fuel enrichments and nitrous gas displaces the some of the in coming air that is needed for the MFI system, therefore the motor goes dead rich with MFI where a carb setup senses this and adjusts accordingly. Most just don't realize it! So you need to lean the motor out somehow when using the NOS! Taking fuel away from either the NOS system tune up or the base MFI tune up will work but your also taking power away at the same time! (Fuel is power, not nitrous) So in order to get the full power of the NOS kit for the tune up your set up for you need to increase the nitrous jet to provide the missing O2 that is being displaced from the air entering the motor when the NOS system is engaged.

And using the same jets for gas vs alky, gas will make more power by a bunch since you need almost twice as much alky by volume!

So you need to be comparing apples to apples when looking at NOS with gas vs NOS with alky!
No different when building an NA motor and using smaller NOS tune ups vs building an NOS motor! They both need different setups to work right.
 
Posts: 2123 | Location: Tewksbury, MA,USA | Registered: November 03, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by TOP38:
It's been a while but I have seen ALKY MFI with Alky NOS systems work well! Meaning they performed as well as any gas system. Talking in the 100 to 300 HP range.


100 is a sniff. 300 is getting there. Any details on a alky/alky 300 pill setup that worked good?
 
Posts: 928 | Location: my own little world | Registered: July 20, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by BJs Wild Ride:
quote:
Originally posted by TOP38:
It's been a while but I have seen ALKY MFI with Alky NOS systems work well! Meaning they performed as well as any gas system. Talking in the 100 to 300 HP range.


100 is a sniff. 300 is getting there. Any details on a alky/alky 300 pill setup that worked good?


(I think) It's a combination of being too much liquid, and too cold to ignite. A decades ago a well known quick 8 (kinda before pro mod) racer was using a "normal" 9 million cubic inch engine with gas dominators. He had a separate take, with alky for his N20 system for a while. He used this for a while, but got to a point where he had strange skips and misses.


I used to be a people person, but people ruined that.
 
Posts: 225 | Location: Usually home | Registered: January 27, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by BJs Wild Ride:
quote:
Originally posted by TOP38:
It's been a while but I have seen ALKY MFI with Alky NOS systems work well! Meaning they performed as well as any gas system. Talking in the 100 to 300 HP range.


100 is a sniff. 300 is getting there. Any details on a alky/alky 300 pill setup that worked good?


100 just a sniff, lol this is bracket talk!

It was a NX Express Gemini plate with a Terminator, ran 250 shot and it worked well. Not 100% sure on the motor size, at least a 588 with conventional heads.
 
Posts: 2123 | Location: Tewksbury, MA,USA | Registered: November 03, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post



DRR Sportsman
Picture of Dave Koehler
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Koehler:
My thoughts on it are pretty transparent if you see my web site.

Now, here is something for everyone to mull over.
Don't knee jerk respond.
Give it some thought first.
I saw this on another site in bold.
What can you determine from the following statement?
"You will net more HP from the same jet on all Gas."

Well, everyone missed the point.
First thing is that statement is not my stance on the subject.
The point was that the statement was an internet absolute.

That statement is quitter talk, period.
Absolutes in racing do not exist.
IF we believe in absolutes we would have never gotten by that 200 mph wall.

It does not matter the fuel used.
IF one actually does some hands on tuning without benefit of internet crew chief influence power and ET always get better.
One just has to be willing to go a step one way or the other beyond conventional group think.

Concerning the nitrous think and/or alcohol for that matter remember that once the BS is out of the way all you have to work with is air and fuel. Mix accordingly.


Dave Koehler - Koehler Injection - http://www.koehlerinjection.com
Fuel Injection - Nitrous Charger - Nitrous Master Software - Balancing
99% of fuel injection problems are electric.
 
Posts: 351 | Location: Urbana, IL 61802 | Registered: December 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
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Didn't read all the posting here but timing is relevant and people should NOT get hung up on numbers. Every engine is different. Lots of people don't understand what goes into the actual number you read on the balancer. And if you did not put your motor together you have NO IDEA what the true timing is. You have several components that make up the true timing of a motor and the number on the balancer is merely a reference point. I have seen stack up issues where the balancer number is 4* off of true TDC - my current motor is 2* off because the adjuster wouldn't move enough to zero it that is how far off things are. And everything in the stackup is good equipment. On the timing light it reads 34* but in reality its 36*. When I first did it and if I had not properly gone through the process - it would have been 8-10* off. So I would have set it at 32* and it would have been 40-42*!! Few runs at the strip or dyno that motor would be beat to crap. The only way to get true TDC is during the cam degree process or similar process with a degree wheel.

The point is if you did not do this yourself and KNOW exactly where true TDC is your guessing when you start your engine for the first time and you should ALWAYS start way low and work your way up.

Not saying timing alone was the issue - but I have a buddy that is on his third turbo motor and he can't get this through his thick skull. I keep saying to him every failure mode he destroyed a motor with screams too much timing and his reply is well so and so is running that sorta timing on a similar setup.
 
Posts: 1422 | Location: St Marys | Registered: January 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of sr4440
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ski

2nd page, 19th post. reason for failure was lack of water flow in the head.


Joe


Without data, you’re just another guy with an opinion.
 
Posts: 1297 | Location: TEXAS | Registered: February 07, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Top Comp
Picture of Curly1
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I am going to say something I have learned from experience. You may have a partially clogged nozzle and car will run almost same but the fuel mixture is off on that cylinder. If you have one sensor in one bank it would probably not even show up. That COULD hurt a piston. With a carb if you are getting air you are getting fuel. With a mechanical injection system the air is by the throttle plate and the fuel is a different system. Having 8 O2 sensors has tipped me off many times that a nozzle was clogged. Look at O2's and one is off, carefully pull it out and sure enough there was some trash in there. Also there is other advantages to having 8 O'2 sensors. I have found that the rear cylinders run leaner than the front due to "Ram Air" effect at high speed. That is something that would never show up on dyno. So I have larger nozzles in the rear and you may need to also. I highly recommend a fuel filter up by the barrel valve. I run TWO large filters coming out of the tank and one smaller one by barrel valve. Still get trash in nozzles once in a while.


https://postimg.cc/gallery/np3zpruo/
"Dunning-Kruger Effect"
-a type of Cognitive bias where people with little expertise or ability assume they have superior expertise or ability. This overestimation occurs as a result of the fact that they do not have enough knowledge to know they don't have enough knowledge.

Before you argue with someone ask yourself, "Is this person mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of a different perspective?" If not there is no point to argue.

4X NE2 CHAMPION. 2020 TDRA NE2 Champion
 
Posts: 3916 | Location: United States of Texas | Registered: April 02, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Trophy
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I totally agree with curly about a plugged nozzle. I think it's easy to buy a setup and 15 yes later you're still using the same rubber port hoses. Yes, they cost but not near as much as wasted trips to the track and hurt engines. One other detail about this thread...when the OP made changes throughout the first dyno session they made main jet changes equivalent to 33% of the actual jet size area in inches where .090-.100 is 23% and .100-.105 is about 10.5%. I realize moving 5 or 10 is common but don't be foolish and think that 65-70 is anywhere close to a 100-105 change. If you need more adjustment put a small pump loop on it and get your jets in a smaller increment range of change.
BW
 
Posts: 182 | Location: Rock><Hard Place | Registered: February 20, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
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quote:
Originally posted by Triple Nickel:
Finally got my 615 on the dyno yesterday and the day was well not quite as expected. First few pulls we ran it up to 6500 rpm looking to get timing and fuel best for max torque. Made 4 pulls to 6500 and stacked the rings up on the exhaust side at the wrist pin on #6 piston. It got real hot and started to melt the piston and locked the rings up in that area of the piston.

here's the setup:
4.626 stroke, 4.600 bore, 6.750 rod lenght, wiseco Q8 pistons, 15.5:1 compression, 043/043/3mm rings, dart 20 degree heads, titanium valves, dart tunnel ram, enderle hat, k-valve, 39 nozzle jets, started with 90 main pill, timing was at 30 for first 2 pulls. Enderle 80A-1.

Motor had an oil leak out the rear main seal/oil pan area during every pull and every run on the dyno. Moroso 4 vane vacuum pump spinning at 60% of crank speed with releif valve set to open at 10".

Initial run in was with gasoline rons primer plus system to seat rings and build some temperature. Checked over the valves and started dyno pulls the following day.

First pull was 90 main pill, 30 degrees timing and 39 nozzle jets. Made 885 tq and 1029 hp sounded fat and had some holes in the dyno numbers on the way to 6500. 97 psi fuel supply pressure, -1.2" vacuum crank case pressure.

Second pull 100 main pill, 30 degrees timing, 39 nozzle jets, made 885 tq and 1032 hp at 6400 rpm. 77 psi supply pressure, -2.5" crankcase pressure. Was smoother in the pull but still heard a few bobbles, but didn't show in the numbers.

Third pull 32 timing and 100 main. 892 torque, 1039 hp at 6300 but bobbled some at 6400 down to 997, then back to 1013 at 6500. 77.1 psi fuel pressure, -4.4" vacuum crankcase pressure.

4th pull 32 timing, 95 main, hp fell off, toque fell off didn't even print out the sheet. Noticed lots of smoke coming from the vacuump pump check tank. Shut it down and started looking at things. #6 was showing 60 psi compression and 100% leak by. All other cylinders showed 180 to 190 psi.

Tear down shows all the head gaskets were sealed up no issues there, but #6 piston has started to burn down to the wrist pin on the exhaust side of the piston. All 3 rings are locked into the piston and theres evidence of heat and aluminum spray on the cylinder wall between 6 and 8.

A few questions:
What's the max timing people are running on these SR20 headed combos?

Anyone out there using mechanical injection and methanol on one of these SR20 style 600 inch motors? If so what fuel pump and nozzle/main pill combination.

What can cause this?

Can this smaller ring package run well in an injected methanol application like this? Is this a break in issue? Did i not get the rings to seat and started pulling too early?

My guess here is it was too lean on third pull and it hurt itself. Just seems weird to me because i've run several motors in the past 565 and 598 24 degree conventional heads and never had them be finicky when it came to timing or fuel mix. I've moved both timing and fuel around quite a bit and never hurt anything.

Any ideas / help would be beneficial.


Just curious if the OP had updates with the success of alky with the 20 degree heads.
 
Posts: 2399 | Location: Ohio | Registered: April 01, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Top Comp
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Great thread, interesting perspectives. I did a 434 sbc for a guy in 2007, made more power than it should have according to time slips, on gasoline. It's owner then a year later tried 2 or 3 different methanol / alky carbs and a couple different belt driven pumps, before relenting to the fact liquid fuel doesn't burn. Gasoline makes more power the more efficient the engine, in comparison to methanol.
 
Posts: 9398 | Location: Madeira Beach Fl. | Registered: June 12, 2018Reply With QuoteReport This Post



DRR Pro
Picture of Alaskaracer
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Rietow:
Great thread, interesting perspectives. I did a 434 sbc for a guy in 2007, made more power than it should have according to time slips, on gasoline. It's owner then a year later tried 2 or 3 different methanol / alky carbs and a couple different belt driven pumps, before relenting to the fact liquid fuel doesn't burn. Gasoline makes more power the more efficient the engine, in comparison to methanol.


On an engine optimized for gas. We already know that alky needs a few different things than gas, and my original question has never been answered. Will an engine optimized for ALKY make the same or more power than one done for gas? You cannot compare the two on equal ground if you're not changing the combo to accommodate the fuel as well. It's already been proven that some combos are optimized for a certain type of gas, and will lose power if a different fuel is run. Why should it be different for alky?

One conclusion I've come to with this is ignition. I think a major part of the picture is most running more serious combos don't have enough ignition to light the mix....it's way colder, alky is harder to light than gas. You can get away with a MSD 6 ignition on a lot of engines without issue, but start getting into something more extreme, you will be down on power due to poor ignition....So at what point does the ignition system become part of the issue with a methanol fueled engine?


Mark Goulette
Owner/Driver of the Livin' The Dream Racing dragster
www.livinthedreamracing.com
"Speed kills but it's better than going slow!"
Authorized Amsoil Retailer
 
Posts: 1462 | Location: Back home in Alaska! | Registered: February 13, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Top Comp
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No matter the ignition you won't burn liquid fuel. Research key words reid vapor pressure, fuel volatility and vaporization. The issue with needing a mag on highly boosted applications, is the boost putting out the spark.

Methanol loves heat, someone else in here said that. I always speed up the water to keep it close to the heat source for a consistent temperature. Anything you can think of to make your daily driver overheat, works.

Gasoline is faster N/A
 
Posts: 9398 | Location: Madeira Beach Fl. | Registered: June 12, 2018Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Shawn Pinkerton:
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Nickel:
Finally got my 615 on the dyno yesterday and the day was well not quite as expected. First few pulls we ran it up to 6500 rpm looking to get timing and fuel best for max torque. Made 4 pulls to 6500 and stacked the rings up on the exhaust side at the wrist pin on #6 piston. It got real hot and started to melt the piston and locked the rings up in that area of the piston.

here's the setup:
4.626 stroke, 4.600 bore, 6.750 rod lenght, wiseco Q8 pistons, 15.5:1 compression, 043/043/3mm rings, dart 20 degree heads, titanium valves, dart tunnel ram, enderle hat, k-valve, 39 nozzle jets, started with 90 main pill, timing was at 30 for first 2 pulls. Enderle 80A-1.

Motor had an oil leak out the rear main seal/oil pan area during every pull and every run on the dyno. Moroso 4 vane vacuum pump spinning at 60% of crank speed with releif valve set to open at 10".

Initial run in was with gasoline rons primer plus system to seat rings and build some temperature. Checked over the valves and started dyno pulls the following day.

First pull was 90 main pill, 30 degrees timing and 39 nozzle jets. Made 885 tq and 1029 hp sounded fat and had some holes in the dyno numbers on the way to 6500. 97 psi fuel supply pressure, -1.2" vacuum crank case pressure.

Second pull 100 main pill, 30 degrees timing, 39 nozzle jets, made 885 tq and 1032 hp at 6400 rpm. 77 psi supply pressure, -2.5" crankcase pressure. Was smoother in the pull but still heard a few bobbles, but didn't show in the numbers.

Third pull 32 timing and 100 main. 892 torque, 1039 hp at 6300 but bobbled some at 6400 down to 997, then back to 1013 at 6500. 77.1 psi fuel pressure, -4.4" vacuum crankcase pressure.

4th pull 32 timing, 95 main, hp fell off, toque fell off didn't even print out the sheet. Noticed lots of smoke coming from the vacuump pump check tank. Shut it down and started looking at things. #6 was showing 60 psi compression and 100% leak by. All other cylinders showed 180 to 190 psi.

Tear down shows all the head gaskets were sealed up no issues there, but #6 piston has started to burn down to the wrist pin on the exhaust side of the piston. All 3 rings are locked into the piston and theres evidence of heat and aluminum spray on the cylinder wall between 6 and 8.

A few questions:
What's the max timing people are running on these SR20 headed combos?

Anyone out there using mechanical injection and methanol on one of these SR20 style 600 inch motors? If so what fuel pump and nozzle/main pill combination.

What can cause this?

Can this smaller ring package run well in an injected methanol application like this? Is this a break in issue? Did i not get the rings to seat and started pulling too early?

My guess here is it was too lean on third pull and it hurt itself. Just seems weird to me because i've run several motors in the past 565 and 598 24 degree conventional heads and never had them be finicky when it came to timing or fuel mix. I've moved both timing and fuel around quite a bit and never hurt anything.

Any ideas / help would be beneficial.


Just curious if the OP had updates with the success of alky with the 20 degree heads.


It's buried in the responses somewhere but he said the original issue was a water flow and air pocket issue. He went on to say 2nd trip to dyno with fixed engine it was making better power and was with 27* timing and he didn't mention it was "skipping" anymore.

Scott
 
Posts: 1838 | Location: Illinois | Registered: August 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Trophy
posted Hide Post
Yeah no issues on second trip to the dyno with good water flow through the motor. Have since raced it a few times, its NOT impressive to say the least, 4.80 146 first day, 4.72 148 on second day. Weather was junk and track was not where it needed to be just cause it was hot and humid, Baro was low just due to the time of the year. I have it hunkered down with a tight converter (flashes to 6200, shift at 7200, crosses at 1/8 mile at 6500) and not enough gear. I didn't have much time to focus on the car before the weather got real crappy and other projects got in the way.

I will be working on the combination later this year and will update the group on changes and results. Current plans are more gear (4.11 to 4.30), loosen converter (6300 to 6700), and possibly a new cam and third trip to the dyno before i go swapping converters and gears around. Right now i'm not really working on the cars, focused on getting the toterhome rehab completed so i can haul all this junk to the track and have a place to sleep.

As for the original burned piston that i started this thread on, i honestly believe it was due to the lack of water flow through the head and block. I didn't go back to the 30+ degree timing range for Day 2 at the dyno just because i was gun shy and worried to hurt it, plus we sort of ran out of time. To answer some questions about the setup, yes i verified TDC, yes i verified pointer location, yes i tried 2 different timing lights, no i was not committed to XYZ timing. I started at 25 degrees got fuel close, verified engine was happy, then added timing, checked plugs, and at 28 it made the same as 27 so we called it a day and settled on 27 degrees. I was out of patience and time on the dyno so we took it off and i finished the build. With only 2 races and more questions to answer i've got a ton more work to do.
 
Posts: 369 | Location: Pride, La | Registered: April 18, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Trophy
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Coloradoracer, i saw issues on a small block making 400 hp or so when i swapped to alky. Had AC Delco R44T plugs, mallory unilite, and junk wires, wouldn't make a clean pass. Swapped over to MSD 6 AL, Champion race plugs, and msd wires and the problem went away.

The motor in question is on a 7AL3, HVC2 Coil, and Moroso Ultra 40 wires. Same ignition I ran on my blown 555 that went 4.30's 164 MPH at 2% underdriven, injected on methanol.
 
Posts: 369 | Location: Pride, La | Registered: April 18, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
Picture of Alaskaracer
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Rietow:
No matter the ignition you won't burn liquid fuel.


I've been giving this some thought. One thing that's for certain, alky engines like temp. Given that alky cools so well, and vaporization is an issue, I've got an idea on how to possibly combat this, and improve the ignitability of the fuel. Since liquid fuel is harder to ignite and basically doesn't do us any good, what about heating the intake manifold? Has anybody ever tried to put a water jacket around the runners to circulate hot water around them? The higher temp in the runners should (at least how I'm thinking anyway) help vaporize the fuel. That should also help on nitrous applications where the cooling effect is pretty much ridiculous. If the issue is liquid fuel instead of vapor, then do what it takes to vaporize it. Supercharged apps won't have this issue since they develop a ton of heat in the intake tract anyway......

Maybe I'm way off base, but it's just how I think.

Triple Nickel, I'm chasing setup issues myself, but so far am not disappointed in the engine's performance on alky.....I'm actually quite pleased, just need to learn the particulars


Mark Goulette
Owner/Driver of the Livin' The Dream Racing dragster
www.livinthedreamracing.com
"Speed kills but it's better than going slow!"
Authorized Amsoil Retailer
 
Posts: 1462 | Location: Back home in Alaska! | Registered: February 13, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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