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615 Dart 20 degree, tunnel ram, Enderle Injection, burned piston
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DRR Trophy
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What is the cam profile in the engine? i would say 30* timing is close. Cam profile can start being picky on alky when you get in a big cid engine. I've been thru it with a big chief engine. Never had a bit of issue till did a cam change and now have a burned up engine for it.
 
Posts: 25 | Location: K-Town | Registered: June 22, 2015Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Trophy
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What was the BSFC numbers in peak torque to peak horsepower or what was the fuel flow lbs/hr. This should isolate a fuel vs. timing issue. On methanol you should be 1.0 to 1.10 BSFC or flowing over 1030 lbs./hr of fuel.

Rob
 
Posts: 110 | Location: Toronto | Registered: May 24, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
Picture of The Bozman
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on a 632 395 HH engine we ended up with a 1.0 pump, almost 120psi 38 jets with a 68 bypass and then a .020 pill in the bypass that kicked in at 6300. It needed the fuel down low and wanted more taken away at the top. We tried 37, 38 and 40 on the nozzles, and went from a 80 to a 60 bypass pill. I think you were real lean and it also sounds like you had a plugged nozzel or a line that had broken down. If you burnt a piston up that bad all the others would have been showing signs of melting as well.


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Posts: 2497 | Location: Gilmer, Texas | Registered: June 25, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Trophy
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Cam is a bullet grind. Here's the specs...

Intake
288 @.050
.525” lobe lift, .893” with 1.7 rocker
320 duration @.020
.022” hot valve lash

Exhaust
308 @.050”
.500” lobe lift, .850” with 1.7 rocker
345 duration @.020”
.022” hot valve lash

115 lobe separation
112 intake centerline

IO 32
IC 76
EO 92
EC 36
 
Posts: 369 | Location: Pride, La | Registered: April 18, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Trophy
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It's an enderle hat so getting the actual air flow and fuel flows on this dyno aren't possible without some re-configuring everything. It may be needed next go around, but initially we didn't have the fuel flow meters nor the air flow meter in place for these pulls.
 
Posts: 369 | Location: Pride, La | Registered: April 18, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
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I have a 632 with 395MC Head Hunter Heads that I ran on Rons injection for several years. It had 39 nozzles 88 or 90 pill (I can check) and ran 28 to 30 degrees timing. It made 1142 hp on dyno. I run autolite 3933 plugs at .40 gap. It was very consistent. Best ET was high 4.56 I think @ 150 mph. I am now on gas carb, best ET has been 4.52 @ 150. My cam is a PAR 5. Big motors run on alky but I have run faster and just as consistent on gas.


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Posts: 315 | Location: Warner Robins, Georgia | Registered: August 20, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Trophy
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I have stated before. These heads do not like Alky. But for the hell of it. Move the piston down in the hole .040 and get a custom piston to make uup the compression difference. This may help. Get the ring land away from the heat
 
Posts: 114 | Location: pa | Registered: September 23, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post



DRR Top Comp
Picture of Curly1
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quote:
Originally posted by Spanky@Wilson Race Engines:
I have stated before. These heads do not like Alky. But for the hell of it. Move the piston down in the hole .040 and get a custom piston to make uup the compression difference. This may help. Get the ring land away from the heat


I am thinking of going to BBC and in my Nostalgia racing I run alky injection. If I build a 589-632 BBC knowing I will be running Enderle alcohol Injection which head would you choose?


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"Dunning-Kruger Effect"
-a type of Cognitive bias where people with little expertise or ability assume they have superior expertise or ability. This overestimation occurs as a result of the fact that they do not have enough knowledge to know they don't have enough knowledge.

Before you argue with someone ask yourself, "Is this person mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of a different perspective?" If not there is no point to argue.

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Posts: 3920 | Location: United States of Texas | Registered: April 02, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
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Trip

I'll leave with these thoughts.

First on the next try don't break the motor in using the primer plus! That's like using a 20 pound sludge hammer to drive a small tac in with regards to fuel delivery. Just a bad idea IMO.

Second, timing is the worst killer of motors I have seen. You state it was too lean on the third pull, maybe so but consider this, fuel is power and power is heat. If it's lean then less heat. I have seen a guy run an entire 1/4 mile pass running NOS and forgot to turn on his fuel pump for the NOS system so he dry sprayed 150HP worth of nitrous. It never hurt a thing! IMO 32 degrees of timing is way too much. (What I stated above applies to NA bracket type motors only with regards to burning up pistons from a lean condition)

Third, you stated it burned up the piston on the ex side through the rings,,, due to too much heat from a lean mixture. How do you know this? I have seen NOS motors do this from being to fat, fuel gets trapped between the rings and once it gets hot it ignites and bang you got piston issues. Once the piston gets hurt/rings and oil gets in, then its all over. With alky you have a bunch of fuel going in the motor, need to get it in and atomized as best as possible and give it some room.

Last, if it got hot like you think, then why? All the alky motors I have run, run cooler in the combustion chambers. Where is the heat coming from? You never said how the rest of the motor looked, how's the other pistons, how do the rod bearing look, etc...

Good luck
 
Posts: 2125 | Location: Tewksbury, MA,USA | Registered: November 03, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
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quote:
Originally posted by Spanky@Wilson Race Engines:
I have stated before. These heads do not like Alky. But for the hell of it. Move the piston down in the hole .040 and get a custom piston to make uup the compression difference. This may help. Get the ring land away from the heat


Personally, I would just recommend going gas before doing damage again. Spanky is dead right on the fact the head does not like the alky. Watched a couple other guys burn them up on the dyno as well trying to get these heads to work with alky. While there are some great tune-ups listed here for a standard conventional head, they are not a 20 degree head and are apples to oranges comparison.
 
Posts: 2399 | Location: Ohio | Registered: April 01, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
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quote:
Originally posted by Shawn Pinkerton:
quote:
Originally posted by Spanky@Wilson Race Engines:
I have stated before. These heads do not like Alky. But for the hell of it. Move the piston down in the hole .040 and get a custom piston to make uup the compression difference. This may help. Get the ring land away from the heat


Personally, I would just recommend going gas before doing damage again. Spanky is dead right on the fact the head does not like the alky. Watched a couple other guys burn them up on the dyno as well trying to get these heads to work with alky. While there are some great tune-ups listed here for a standard conventional head, they are not a 20 degree head and are apples to oranges comparison.


It's hard to argue with this!!! But I'd love to try, just not on my dime! Big Grin
 
Posts: 2125 | Location: Tewksbury, MA,USA | Registered: November 03, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
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quote:
Originally posted by TOP38:
quote:
Originally posted by Shawn Pinkerton:
quote:
Originally posted by Spanky@Wilson Race Engines:
I have stated before. These heads do not like Alky. But for the hell of it. Move the piston down in the hole .040 and get a custom piston to make uup the compression difference. This may help. Get the ring land away from the heat


Personally, I would just recommend going gas before doing damage again. Spanky is dead right on the fact the head does not like the alky. Watched a couple other guys burn them up on the dyno as well trying to get these heads to work with alky. While there are some great tune-ups listed here for a standard conventional head, they are not a 20 degree head and are apples to oranges comparison.


It's hard to argue with this!!! But I'd love to try, just not on my dime! Big Grin


You and me both. Heard rumor that Frankenstein was kicking this around. Will be interesting to see if they go for it.
 
Posts: 2399 | Location: Ohio | Registered: April 01, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
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quote:
Originally posted by Curly1:
quote:
Originally posted by Spanky@Wilson Race Engines:
I have stated before. These heads do not like Alky. But for the hell of it. Move the piston down in the hole .040 and get a custom piston to make uup the compression difference. This may help. Get the ring land away from the heat


I am thinking of going to BBC and in my Nostalgia racing I run alky injection. If I build a 589-632 BBC knowing I will be running Enderle alcohol Injection which head would you choose?


The 383HH head seems to be a very popular head for the 598-632 applications.
 
Posts: 2399 | Location: Ohio | Registered: April 01, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Trophy
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Top 38,

Agree about the primer plus and breaking the motor in. I've done this in the past successfully but its a different arrangement. My son's 598 with 380 pro 2's was broke in on the same dyno following the same procedure, with no negative consequence. The 598 had a 5" single toilet on a standard intake. The spray bar is really close to the bottom of the butterfly. The proximity of the fuel stream to the individual runners of the intake is quite different. It sprays up, hits the bottom of the butterfly, falls to the center of the intake, then out to the runners. On the tunnel ram, spray bars are directly above 4 runners in the back and 4 runners in the front. They spray up, hit the top of hat, then rain back down directly into the runners. I should have thought about this one a little more before i did it. How this plays with the 20 degree head i dunno.... On my 24 degree motors it didn't seem to matter. This 615's cam, compression, cubic inch to me are not necessarily exotic or outside of what has become the norm, the cylinder heads are the wild card here. Primer plus in general.... not good atomization at all, 100% agree. Was a bad idea. Next break in will likely be on gasoline carburetor and different intake.

Timing was too high, 100% agree. After thinking about it more should have started around 25 or so, worked on the fuel mix and then slowly brought the timing up. I didn't have a good idea of where the timing should have started, i learned the hard way 30 is too high for a timing starting point on this motor. I'd assume the same applies for all non-conventional intake valve angle motors. I ran timing up on son's 598 to 38 degrees last time on the dyno, it didn't like it but it also didn't burn things up and we were able to see it was down in power and backed the timing up to 36 range. My starting point on the 598 was 34 degrees.

When i stated it burned the piston up cause it was lean, i'm guessing to some degree. There are some other indicators here that it got lean but i'm trying to piece the puzzle together. I see some etching in the top of the bores on the other cylinders but no apparent damage to the other pistons. The other plugs as i stated before don't necessarily show evidence of getting lean, i think that's due to the champion plug vs. the NGK and the durability of the cadmium plating on the plug. I honestly don't know its a guess at this point. Heck if i knew what burned it up i wouldn't be posting on here and asking for help. What i'm trying to understand here is why it went lean and burned up vs. just dropping in power like i have seen on my other conventional headed motors. Starting to think the answer here is power level and combustion chamber efficiency.

My experience with blowers and alcohol injected big blocks is that when the fuel mix gets lean they get really hot really quick and bad stuff happens. I have not experienced burned pistons or other "bad stuff" in normally aspirated injected methanol applications when I lean them out on the dyno and or in the car. In my blower application i never got that lean because i felt like the blower would definitely burn things up and if i wanted more power i would just step up the pulley. My thoughts with this 615 were: 1. 39 nozzle and 90 to 105 pill isn't that lean. 2. If 39 and 90-105 main is lean it will show up in the torque/hp numbers before it hurts itself. Not the case here, it burned a piston almost like a blown application.

If nothing else happens here other than i abandon the entire project and go a different route, i'll know that i tried and learned some along the way.
 
Posts: 369 | Location: Pride, La | Registered: April 18, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post



DRR Trophy
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Triple, i have a 598 SR20 combo. with a terminator. 28 degrees of timing with the twin gear pump. 39 nozzles, 70ish pill. with a high speed mechanical bypass. this gives me on avg 5.1 on the O2 sensors.

now with that said a gas carb is in the works, only because its not as quick. with the gas carb 4.45 ET. with alky, best of 4.56. this is a steel block.
 
Posts: 20 | Location: Roswell, GA | Registered: November 28, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
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quote:
Originally posted by Drew_1:
Triple, i have a 598 SR20 combo. with a terminator. 28 degrees of timing with the twin gear pump. 39 nozzles, 70ish pill. with a high speed mechanical bypass. this gives me on avg 5.1 on the O2 sensors.

now with that said a gas carb is in the works, only because its not as quick. with the gas carb 4.45 ET. with alky, best of 4.56. this is a steel block.


Sounds like your on the right track with the injection. Higher fuel pressure/smaller nozzle and another hi speed could help more. Do you have a data logger with O2's? This would help a bunch.

I do know of a racer who tried something similar, not the 20 degree heads, but darts 18 degree conventional heads. He did play with it for a few years then went to gas and it was faster.
 
Posts: 2125 | Location: Tewksbury, MA,USA | Registered: November 03, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
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Nickel

looking at what you posted, you were never lean. On the 3rd pull with a .039 nozzle and 77 PSI you were putting 1102 lbs of fuel an hour into your engine.

The "holes" in the power curve probably occurred at or near peak torque, that is were detonation is most likely to happen.

I dynoed bu#$loads of MFI methanol engines, if you want to talk i will PM you my number.

Joe


Without data, you’re just another guy with an opinion.
 
Posts: 1297 | Location: TEXAS | Registered: February 07, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Trophy
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SR4440. I would like to talk to you. Not sure if I know how to check these PMs but send that PM.
 
Posts: 369 | Location: Pride, La | Registered: April 18, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Trophy
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Update:

Dyno'd again, fairly sure the reason it burned a piston initially was due to lack of water flow on the dyno. This go around we dyno'd on both gasoline with a merlin X intake and 1400 cfm pro systems and with the enderle hat on the dart tunnel ram. 11 total pulls on gasoline 14 total pulls on methanol injection. No engine damage during the runs. Had a manifold leak on gasoline so the vacuum was in the 2" to 3" range, but no leaks or drips. This go around we added 0.030" thicker head gaskets and broke the motor in and pulled it on gasoline (C-16 renegade) on day 1. Base compression here is 14.7:1.

Gas Results:
Best TQ 840 ftlbs @6400 rpm, 1068 hp on gasoline at 7100. Averages (5800 to 7100) 823 tq adn 1010 hp. Best timing was 34 degrees. Tried everything from 25 to 36. Best crankcase vacuum was 3" at 7000 rpm.

Methanol Injection Results:
Best TQ 908 TQ at 5800 rpm, 1091 HP. Averages (5700 to 7100) 866 TQ and 1052 HP. Best timing was 27 degrees, didn't like the high speed dropped 15 to 20 hp everytime i tried it. Best tune up was 95 main pill, 39 nozzle jets, enderle 80A-1. Tried timing from 25 to 29. Best crankcase vacuum was 9" at 7000 RPM. O2 readings were 5.4 dropping to 5.2 after 6600 rpm. Even though the high speed kept the O2 at 5.4 through the pull when we turned it on at 6800 rpm with a 50 pill it still dropped 15 hp up top (6900 to 7200). EGTs varied from 1150 to 1210 except for #2 which appeared to be holding around 1100 for all the tests. Swapped probes and it was a real so not sure why that one is cool but it didn't seem to hurt anything mechanically.

The motor seems to be happy and it will be interesting when i get it running and in the car. This dyno has a reputation for being greedy so not real sure what it would make on other pumps but all in all it held together. The HP numbers are about 50 shy of where i wanted to be but the TQ is right were it needed to be. I'm starting to believe the cam is a tad too small and configured for the injection so i don't necessarily think its optimized for either application it was the best me and the cam guy could come up with. I plan to try a different cam at the next rebuild.
 
Posts: 369 | Location: Pride, La | Registered: April 18, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Top Comp
Picture of Curly1
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68 Ftlbs and at 600 RPM lower is pretty significant. Also I am impressed with the 23 hp gain, from what most say on engine like that is would do better with gas.
Most important glad you got it going and did not hurt the motor this time.


https://postimg.cc/gallery/np3zpruo/
"Dunning-Kruger Effect"
-a type of Cognitive bias where people with little expertise or ability assume they have superior expertise or ability. This overestimation occurs as a result of the fact that they do not have enough knowledge to know they don't have enough knowledge.

Before you argue with someone ask yourself, "Is this person mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of a different perspective?" If not there is no point to argue.

4X NE2 CHAMPION. 2020 TDRA NE2 Champion
 
Posts: 3920 | Location: United States of Texas | Registered: April 02, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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