Ok, So over the last two seasons I've managed to break the teeth off of my beloved JW The Wheel flexplates when the engine kicks back when starting. I do use a timing retard but if it kicks back, it's a flexplate. I've bought six in two years....getting tired of replacing them. For what it costs to send it in, get it fixed, recerted, and sent back is about the same cost as just buying a new one. But it's getting stupid expensive and I'm tired of replacing them. So, I have two options I'm considering. One, bite the bullet and get the Meziere 139 tooth deal, including the starter, for nearly $2000. I've been told by many this will fix that issue for good. The other option is the Meziere 168 tooth flexplate and just continue to use my current starter. I'm going to look at a couple of things that might be contributing to the kickback, but like I said, I'm tired of bying flexplates. And NO, I'm not getting a generic TCI or other average SFI flexplate. I've done back to back testing and the heavier flexplates ARE FASTER on my stuff than the lighter weight ones. Both of the Meziere are similar in weight to the JW, which is what I want. Just can't decide if I should switch to the 10 pitch which I've been told will fix the issue permanently, or stay with 168 tooth...

Thoughts?

Go with the 139 meziere with a 139 house of Payne ultimate big dawg starter and 16 volts and all issues disappear. Plus you can run sub 9 sec ets just on starter.

Already running 16v.

Meziere, 139 billet flex plate and starter and a XS 16 volt battery.


Bob

When I first went to mechanical injection I had a few kickbacks and broke ring gears. Around 2012 I went to 139 tooth deal and have not broke anything since. I run Powermaster starters and really like them. I believe the flexplate is the $229 ATI one from Summit. Nothing against Maziere I sure they are good quality but I am not paying that for them. If you have a good starter you can change the nose gear, ($10) use a 139 tooth starter adaptor block (about $75)
and the 139 tooth flexplate of your choice. The key is the 139 tooth flexplate, it is almost same diameter but has less teeth and they are larger and will not break. Does not matter much what brand flexplate you get but get the 139 tooth one and matching starter mounting block and nose gear.

Starter nose gear, you can pay $75-$100 or you can guy GM Diesel starter nose gear for $5-10. Same thing, your money.

Meziere or Mark Payne House of Payne; either one will be an excellent choice. I have used both with satisfactory results.

One side note, speaking of start retard. Carefully check rotor phasing when timing is in retard position. Your continued breakage issue raises a red flag about crossfire when retarded. Even do some research and consider eliminating the retard function. Many racers are operating successfully with fixed timing. Anywho, food for thought.

Also, when you spin the engine with the ignition off, it should be mechanically smooth and relatively quiet.

Lastly, I often use this method to ensure optimal starter gear-to-flexplate mesh. Remove the starter mounting block with the starter drive gear still installed. Then bolt the starter block with the gear onto the engine block with flexplate. This will let you check the gear mesh pattern precisely. In some cases, use a .015-.030 shim between the starter mounting block and the engine block to achieve optimum mesh.

What ignition? How much start retard if using? Kickback when cold, hot or both? If when cold, what’s the starting method? Gas or methanol?

quote:

One side note, speaking of start retard. Carefully check rotor phasing when timing is in retard position. Your continued breakage issue raises a red flag about crossfire when retarded. Even do some research and consider eliminating the retard function. Many racers are operating successfully with fixed timing.

Here’s how I prefer my rotor phased, how I do it and easily check it at any time.

The black line on the cap/ distributor housing is #1 plug tower. I drill 1/4” holes (minimum 2) in my caps. MSD distributor caps are poorly vented. With cap removed, I set the crank to the desired timing mark (36* for me) and then orientate the distributor housing to get the rotor to the position I want ( I like the rotor tang slightly leading the tower centerline, not centered). Then I replace the cap and draw a mark on the side of the rotor though the cap drilled hole.

After I set the timing with my crank trigger, I shoot the distributor hole with the timing light and line up the rotor mark I drew previously to the cap rotating the distributor housing. I can easily change how much leading or trailing of the rotor tang to distributor tower at any time using this method.

fix your lean start to solve the issue

Ok, few things. Ignition is MSD Pro CDI 600. No dizzy. Ditched it a few years ago and wont' go back. Second, I HAVE a 16v battery. Four of them to be exact. The Full Spectrum I run now, and two spare XS Power for my car, and the XS Power in my daughter's car.......On start retard, I'm pulling 8 degrees right now, engine has kicked back cold and hot. I use a Ron's Primer plus to assist in starting as I have MFI on alky and tank is mounted in front of me so it takes a bit to get fuel to the main fuel pump. I did check and adjust starter to flexplate clearance when I first put it together to make sure it was right. Starter works fine, it's just that when it does kick back, it breaks the teeth off the ring gear. I've noticed that the JW flexplate ring gears appear to be a standard ring gear, it looks like cast material where the breaks are. If I'm going to change flexplates, the new one needs to be approx the same weight as the JW. I've done back to back testing with a lighter flexplate and my car is faster with a heavier one, so any replacement must be close in weight. Meziere has that going for it. Oh, starter is a powermaster, they have been good to me and they work well. They did say they could convert mine for me, they won't sell the parts individually.

Just my opinion but with an engine like you run I would absolutely got with their 139 plate and 10 pitch starter.

I changed to that combination but mine is HOP and I’m pretty sure my car would run faster on the starter than my small block. Meziere is top tier stuff. You won’t be disappointed with that decision, especially after seeing what you’ve seen to this point. The there are so much larger and stronger. Good luck with whatever you decide.

definitely 139 would be better but should be fine with what you have

quote:

Originally posted by Alaskaracer: Ignition is MSD Pro CDI 600. No dizzy.

I’ll guess and say your kickback problems started when you installed the MSD Pro CDI 600 using the distributor/ oil pump drive for the cam sync. If yes, I’ll explain your kickback problem.

Actually, that would be correct. I am moving the cam sync to the gear drive now but have been running the dizzy style one up until now

Ok, this is long.

In 2021 I was switching from MFI with a PP, to EFI and keeping the PP as I needed a greater prime pressure from the mechanical pump for EFI. MFI need little pressure to idle.

I initially installed the Holley ECU and programmed it to run the ignition and kept the EFI injection part disabled using the MFI and PP on the engine as prior. This allowed me to learn how to program EFI and get much of it set up prior to switching over. I used a dual sync distributor for the needed cam sync and allowed Holley to control the Grid ignition firing on the white wire.

The first major problem I ran into was kickback when using the PP to start that I didn’t have prior. I was unable to get it to stop to my satisfaction using different starting methods I tried. The best when warm was cranking the engine with ignition ON and PP “off” for a two count and then turning PP “on”. When cold initial start it was PP on for a two count, crank engine with ignition OFF (PP ON) for another 2 count and then ignition ON. I also switched from a Toilet to a 4 hole throttle body that made it slightly better.

The fix for me was removing the ignition control from Holley only allowing it to control the injection and letting Grid control the ignition. What this method does is when the ignition is ON, every time Grid sees a firing pulse it fires the ignition. Holley needs to see a cam pulse, a firing pulse prior to #1 cylinder and then a second firing pulse for #1 cylinder for sync to be achieved. Then the next revolution ignition firing will occur along with the correct fuel injector firing. Holley has a cranking record feature that allows you to see when all this firing is happening in a viewable data acquisition to ensure one has it set up properly…. perty cool.

The picture shows the pickups for both Holley (right) and Grid. The distributor provides the cam pulse and has the cylinder firing as well if I chose to use it if the pickup fails. And I can switch back to Holley controlled ignition with a simple jumper addition. I like to “Be Prepared” with all options.

As for the MSD Pro CDI 600, I’m not knowledgeable about when it initially fires after achieving first cam orientation sync pulse. MSD might know this.