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Alternators..again
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DRR Pro
Picture of HS professor
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quote:
Here’s my PowerMaster 47293 150 amp mount that uses 4 bolts and is rock solid. 2-1 pullys. This is with a Meziere pump.



I tried a 150 amp and it squealed like a btch, was told by Powermaster I needed to run a serpentine belt set-up ?? My crank pulley is larger than yours though ……….
 
Posts: 1422 | Location: Monroe twp nj | Registered: December 05, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by HS professor:
quote:
Here’s my PowerMaster 47293 150 amp mount that uses 4 bolts and is rock solid. 2-1 pullys. This is with a Meziere pump.



I tried a 150 amp and it squealed like a btch, was told by Powermaster I needed to run a serpentine belt set-up ?? My crank pulley is larger than yours though ……….


I’ve run this alternator with ratios of 1.57 to 2.68 changing both pulley diameters to achieve this. Presently with 2.00 ratio and like this best.

I only use USA made Gates belts.
 
Posts: 2500 | Location: 53056 | Registered: December 30, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
Picture of banjo
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hotrod Corvette:
quote:
The 144 imo is way overkill.

Another thing, it's better to oversize the alternator, then to undersize.


Bill so which one it is?

With the CS 144 the OP can leave the battery charger in the trailer...all day


I can leave the battery charger in the trailer all day with the cs130.

Let me expand/clarify the point I was trying to make. It is better to oversize than to use an undersize alternator.

If you use an alternator that is rated for the max load it will see, you are setting yourself up for issues. The closer you get to the rated load of an alternator, the less efficient it will become. This will create a bigger variance in the load it puts on the engine depending on the state of charge, which you will see in your et slip.

Extreme example I can give, I know some of you have seen the shogun lectri charge alternators. If memory serves me, they put out about 15 amps. Buddy of mine comes to me and tells me his car is moving all over the place and its slow. nearly a 10th. So I come over to try and help him figure out what's going on. I see the shogun alternator and asked when he put it on. He said this was the first race with it. Had him fire it up, at idle , it show 12.8 volts and at 3000 it was showing 13.2 volts. Told him to take the belt off and make a pass. Car picked back up and was consistent.

IMO, for a bracket racer, it is important that your alternator setup be able to meet the highest load it will see at idle. When I say set up, I am talking taking into consideration, the max load it will see, the charge curve of the alternator, and having the correct pulley ratio to meet that. The cs130 I have is rated at 50 amps at 2000 alternator rpm. So a 2-1 pulley ratio will put me where I need to be at idle.

The reason I say it's important to be able to meet the highest demands at idle is because your engine spends the majority of its run time at idle/ just above. If your setup is unable to keep up with the load at idle/off idle, you will lower the state of charge of the battery. The alternator will then try to charge the battery going down the track and it will affect consistancy If the state of charge is not the same every run. How much depends on your setup.

Monitoring voltage is a good way of determining if your setup is up to the task. Ideally you want the voltage above 14 volts at the battery to maintain a good charge. If you turn things on and the voltage drops and doesnt recover, this means this means the alternator is unable to keep up with the load, therefore it is now draining the battery, thus affecting its ability to maintain a charge on the battery. I can turn everything on in my car and it will stay above 14 volts at idle.

I do think the cs144, 200 amp alternator is overkill, but it will do the job just fine. I am not a fan of the 1 wire setups and I would be looking at the 140amp versions for a racecar. Some things to also consider, the cs144 has different spacing than the cs130 which will fit most standard brackets. I do like that you dont have to spin it as fast, but I haven't had any longevity issues with mine.

My 2 cents


Bill Simpkins
74 Nova
SBC 406
3240 pounds
Speierracing heads

60 1.27 (10/16)
1/8 6.03@111 (10/16)
Best 9.87@131 on the rev limitor 1 Feb 2013


nova

quarterpanelview

wheelie

FTI Converter
www.speierracingheads.com

 
Posts: 1830 | Location: San Angelo | Registered: March 07, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Top Comp
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I have 2 batteries in the trunk. As soon as I finish my burnout I turn the alternator off until I hit the return road....My car is deadly consistent---most of the time Wink
 
Posts: 6220 | Location: everywhere | Registered: March 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
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I only have a 55 amp alternator due to space restrictions and don’t have any consistency issues. I have electric water pump, fan , fuel pump and ignition box and running on gas. 2-1 ratio and 16 volt battery.
 
Posts: 2591 | Location: at the track | Registered: May 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of Hotrod Corvette
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by banjo:
quote:
Originally posted by Hotrod Corvette:
quote:
The 144 imo is way overkill.

Another thing, it's better to oversize the alternator, then to undersize.


Bill so which one it is?

With the CS 144 the OP can leave the battery charger in the trailer...all day


I can leave the battery charger in the trailer all day with the cs130.

Let me expand/clarify the point I was trying to make. It is better to oversize than to use an undersize alternator.

If you use an alternator that is rated for the max load it will see, you are setting yourself up for issues. The closer you get to the rated load of an alternator, the less efficient it will become. This will create a bigger variance in the load it puts on the engine depending on the state of charge, which you will see in your et slip.

Extreme example I can give, I know some of you have seen the shogun lectri charge alternators. If memory serves me, they put out about 15 amps. Buddy of mine comes to me and tells me his car is moving all over the place and its slow. nearly a 10th. So I come over to try and help him figure out what's going on. I see the shogun alternator and asked when he put it on. He said this was the first race with it. Had him fire it up, at idle , it show 12.8 volts and at 3000 it was showing 13.2 volts. Told him to take the belt off and make a pass. Car picked back up and was consistent.

IMO, for a bracket racer, it is important that your alternator setup be able to meet the highest load it will see at idle. When I say set up, I am talking taking into consideration, the max load it will see, the charge curve of the alternator, and having the correct pulley ratio to meet that. The cs130 I have is rated at 50 amps at 2000 alternator rpm. So a 2-1 pulley ratio will put me where I need to be at idle.

The reason I say it's important to be able to meet the highest demands at idle is because your engine spends the majority of its run time at idle/ just above. If your setup is unable to keep up with the load at idle/off idle, you will lower the state of charge of the battery. The alternator will then try to charge the battery going down the track and it will affect consistancy If the state of charge is not the same every run. How much depends on your setup.

Monitoring voltage is a good way of determining if your setup is up to the task. Ideally you want the voltage above 14 volts at the battery to maintain a good charge. If you turn things on and the voltage drops and doesnt recover, this means this means the alternator is unable to keep up with the load, therefore it is now draining the battery, thus affecting its ability to maintain a charge on the battery. I can turn everything on in my car and it will stay above 14 volts at idle.

I do think the cs144, 200 amp alternator is overkill, but it will do the job just fine. I am not a fan of the 1 wire setups and I would be looking at the 140amp versions for a racecar. Some things to also consider, the cs144 has different spacing than the cs130 which will fit most standard brackets. I do like that you dont have to spin it as fast, but I haven't had any longevity issues with mine.

My 2 cents


Not worthy

I never offered up a 200 amp unit, I just mentioned a custom built unit that has an over sized rectifier and a superior 14.7 volt regulator...but you keep using some O'Really's rebuilt stuff

Yes I agree a remote location for the voltage reading...right on the MSD lead


Burt

I'm So Proud To Be An American And Not A Democrat...

 
Posts: 1225 | Location: Clinton Township, MI | Registered: September 16, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by ferndaleflyer:
I have 2 batteries in the trunk. As soon as I finish my burnout I turn the alternator off until I hit the return road....My car is deadly consistent---most of the time Wink


I was certain I used to turn off the 10si on my old Camaro after the burnout by killing power to the small wire. I put a 10sibon my wife’s tractor and noticed that as soon as you pulse the small wire once, it keeps charging until I shut the tractor down. I read something on line that sounded like this was expected operation and you can’t turn it off unless you disconnect the battery power from the main stud.

Just curious how you turn your off?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: BJs Wild Ride,
 
Posts: 935 | Location: my own little world | Registered: July 20, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post



DRR Top Comp
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Thats a good question. I did not wire this or any of my past cars but it does shut it off. Its not really necessary because this is a bracket car, who cares how fast it goes as long it is the same every pass.
 
Posts: 6220 | Location: everywhere | Registered: March 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
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Banjo what are you using to log amperage and where are you reading from?
 
Posts: 728 | Location: Upstate NY | Registered: July 02, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of BD104X
posted Hide Post
Jeez, 200 amp alternators? You guys racing ambulances or using your race car to power your TIG welders?? lol.


Billy Duhs - BD104X@gmail.com
 
Posts: 635 | Location: New Jersey | Registered: February 26, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
Picture of banjo
posted Hide Post
Guess I misread the link,where it said rated at 210 amps.

I found this sensor on amazon a while back.

Sensor

It has a 5 volt output and I have it hooked to my alternator wire.


Bill Simpkins
74 Nova
SBC 406
3240 pounds
Speierracing heads

60 1.27 (10/16)
1/8 6.03@111 (10/16)
Best 9.87@131 on the rev limitor 1 Feb 2013


nova

quarterpanelview

wheelie

FTI Converter
www.speierracingheads.com

 
Posts: 1830 | Location: San Angelo | Registered: March 07, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Top Comp
posted Hide Post
I agree with Billy on this. I ran the small Shogun for years, never had any problems. I switched to 16 volts and replaced it with an East Coast 16 volt alternator.

I didn't realize at the time that the Shogun would have worked on the 16 volt battery or I would have just left it on there.

I think the overall health of the wiring system makes a big difference. I have seen some out there that look like a mangled mess. We did some re-wiring on Pivot Doc's dragster and all his issues went away.


Clowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right. Here I am.......
 
Posts: 5319 | Location: stuck in the middle with you! | Registered: March 11, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Trophy
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Wow I’ve learned some stuff from this post!!
My alt pulley is 2.5”, crank pulley is 5.5”. Ratio is 2.2:1.
I have a voltmeter inside the car right below my switch panel, with everything on it drops way, way below 14..
I just put a new Red Top in. Rewired entire thing last year. Did find my aerospace water pump had a little drag, took motor apart and the rear bearing made a little noise. Popped shield off bearing, sprayed out with brake clean, put a little grease in, reassembled. Works fine now, draws 3.2-3.4 amps. Probably going to pick up another water pump of some kind for a spare. Wish a Meziere was in the budget, but it ain’t.
Back to my original problem- looked high, low, and in between. Leaning toward a 140a Powermaster cs130 cased unit, it’ll fit my bracket and it’s not much more $ than a oem rebuild. Local junkyards don’t have anything, and I’m not buying used off of eBay.
140a Powermaster for around 150 good or bad?
 
Posts: 97 | Location: South MS | Registered: September 07, 2015Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Iforgot:
Did find my aerospace water pump had a little drag, took motor apart and the rear bearing made a little noise. Popped shield off bearing, sprayed out with brake clean, put a little grease in, reassembled. Works fine now, draws 3.2-3.4 amps. Probably going to pick up another water pump of some kind for a spare. Wish a Meziere was in the budget, but it ain’t.


Iforgot…. I took this Aerospace off my sbc this year and replaced with Meziere. This came with the car I bought in 2007 and when the motor windings failed (besides the screws that hold the brush plate falling out) in 2010, I replaced with a new motor. Everything you see in the photo is free to you for the price of the ride if you’re interested. I couldn’t sell this to anyone and feel right about it.

 
Posts: 2500 | Location: 53056 | Registered: December 30, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post



DRR S/Pro
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3 amp is low amp draw for those motors and usually indicative of some open windings so I would be getting that pump out of there. Somewhere around 6-7 amps is normal.
 
Posts: 2591 | Location: at the track | Registered: May 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by green1:
3 amp is low amp draw for those motors and usually indicative of some open windings so I would be getting that pump out of there. Somewhere around 6-7 amps is normal.

After I purchased my car I was checking current draw on toggle switched items to verify the proper fuse values and was surprised how little the Aerospace water pump motor drew in current. It was fused at 15 amp. My new Meziere is fused 20 amp.

Aerospace lists this pump motor at 4 amps.
https://shop.aerospacecomponen...tricwaterpump-1.aspx
 
Posts: 2500 | Location: 53056 | Registered: December 30, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
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Ok. I have only worked on one and don’t remember the amp draw but Meziere and CSR draw 6-7 amps on 12 volts. The initial amp draw when switch is first flipped on will be higher though until motor gets up to speed. I believe I have my Meziere fused at 15 amps and running 16 volt battery.
 
Posts: 2591 | Location: at the track | Registered: May 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Trophy
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The previous amp draw I listed was dry, wanted to make sure it ran before I put it back on.
Just tested it on the car- no leaks, draws 8.4-8.5 amps, but it’s louder than it was. Motor will have to have some work. It’s moving water great, just a little loud.

Markemark-you have a pm.
 
Posts: 97 | Location: South MS | Registered: September 07, 2015Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
posted Hide Post
Noise is typically bearing behind the seal. Most of these pumps if they leak a little water it will get into the bearing and cause rust to form. I never change the bearing on the commutator side as they were always good. Another thing to look at on that pump is the brush plate is held in place by little plastic screws and the pump I worked on the screws had came out and bounced around inside the motor. Aerospace told me I couldn’t get parts so I had to make do with what I could find.
 
Posts: 2591 | Location: at the track | Registered: May 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
posted Hide Post
Does anyone know if one of the newer higher amp alternators will bolt in place of an older 65amp gm unit? The current one I am using came off a 77/78 camaro. Hope to get a alternator to fit the bracket that I have. What if any wireing needs change? I still have three wires on alternator.
 
Posts: 506 | Location: Going to or returning from the chipmine. | Registered: July 01, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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