My buddy has a mild 9:1, 460 BBC, hydraulic flat tappet, MSD to an HEI. If the car sits for a week he cranks it for 15 seconds, pauses for 30 seconds, cranks for another 15-20, pauses to give the starter a break then cranks again and usually it starts. The first two crankings show no oil pressure on the mechanical gauge. Once he gets pressure the engine starts. He has a Melling HV pump, I think, with the pickup welded or brazed on. He uses 20-50 oil and once it starts, oil pressure stays good. When engine gets to operating temp, oil pressure is about 25 at idle but it's over 40 cruising. Can the relief valve be stuck open and then close after X amount of cranking?

Does it have a low oil pressure shut down?

quote:

Originally posted by Curly1:
Does it have a low oil pressure shut down?

This is a street driven car only. Pressure is good at cruise and acceleration. If he starts it everyday, it fires right up. I had him pull a valve cover and look at the valves after a couple weeks of no starts and all valves were closed. Sounds to me like the lifters bleed down and it takes lots of cranking to pump them up so it'll start. This has gradually gotten worse over the years. The car probably gets 1000 miles a year.

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Does it have a low oil pressure shut down?

unless this is true, oil pressure has absolutely nothing to do with starting hard.
Operator is lacking in knowledge of cold engines and fuel demand.

Compression test it the next “session”
No compression I’d say the lifters bled down.

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Originally posted by B.C.Malibu:
Compression test it the next “session”
No compression I’d say the lifters bled down.

I'm thinking this is the most likely answer, but should it take 30-40 seconds of cranking to pump them up enough to start it?

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Originally posted by Ron Gusack:

quote:

Originally posted by Curly1:
Does it have a low oil pressure shut down?

This is a street driven car only. Pressure is good at cruise and acceleration. If he starts it everyday, it fires right up. I had him pull a valve cover and look at the valves after a couple weeks of no starts and all valves were closed. Sounds to me like the lifters bleed down and it takes lots of cranking to pump them up so it'll start. This has gradually gotten worse over the years. The car probably gets 1000 miles a year.

Some people put low oil pressure lights or ignition cut out for low oil pressure. Just want to verify you are getting spark.

This is a carburetor engine, correct? If so, after it has sat for a week or more, add some fuel directly into the carb. See if it doesn't fire right up.

I have noticed this same phenomenon with a mechanical fuel pump, a carburetor, and the E10 gasoline that comes out of most gas station pumps these days. The fuel dries up in the float bowls and accelerator pumps. If mine has only sat for one full day, it fires right up. I bet if he were to just crank it until (and pump the throttle) til he was just sure there is no way it is gonna start...it would. Takes quite awhile to refill a completely empty carburetor with a mechanical pump (that might also be dry). It's at least worth a quick squirt of fuel to confirm or disprove. Take care. Tom Worthington

That is it basically find out if it has spark and fuel then trace it back from there.

Electric fuel pump and Holley 750DP with plenty of squirter. I'm trying to get him to measure voltage at the Bat terminal of the HEI. I think it has spark because it eventually fires and instantly refires unless it sits for more than a few days but I will get him to check for spark too.. It runs and drives absolutely fine once it starts. I'm also trying to find out if the pressure gauge is mechanical or electric.

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This is a carburetor engine, correct? If so, after it has sat for a week or more, add some fuel directly into the carb. See if it doesn't fire right up.

I'd agree with this or maybe not getting full 12 volts during cranking.

If the lifters bled down and it was down on compression it would crank noticably faster.

Seems to me the guy may not know what his engine likes for a cold start after prolonged sitting? Or possibly, a bad accelerator pump diaphragm or gummed up passages/nozzles in his carb. Like others suggested, a squirt of gas or spray of carb cleaner down the primary barrels before cranking should tell him where to look next.
With an electric pump, all it should take is about 5 seconds of pump run-time to fill the bowls. 2 or 3 full strokes of the throttle, crank for 6-10 seconds, then repeat. If it doesn't start on the first try, it should on the 2nd try, or 3rd at worst.
Hopefully it doesn't have those really AWFUL Rhodes bleed-down lifters in it.
Normal hydraulic flat-tappet lifters only have .100" of travel in the plunger, so even with the mildest cam GM ever put in a BBC, (.398" lift, IIRC), it should still have valves opening plenty enough to allow it to start.
Also, it is counter-productive to crank an engine until you have oil pressure before starting it. David Reher covered that in one of his articles, as have others.
Tell the guy to pump the throttle several times and crank it over with throttle closed.

I talked to him today and he's supposed to measure cranking voltage at the HEI. We put a cam in it 4-5 years ago and installed new Comp lifters at that time. We rebuilt this engine in 2008 and it started instantly until a couple years ago and it's gradually gotten worse. It had a 4150 750 on it after the rebuild and after 6-7 years he put a 750 Dominator on it. It ran great with both carbs but then it developed this attitude about starting. He decided that the Dominator was junk and went back to the tried and true 4150, no good and then a brand new HEI, no good and here we are. Gradually the oil pressure has dropped at idle and it's a PIA to start. It's never had a working choke on it even though there's one in the air horn. He supposed to measure voltage and he's supposed to close the choke and try starting to see what happens. We shall see what happens.

Hi Ron. The additional info helps. Good idea to have him check B+ voltage at the HEI Dist. Been a while since I had to do that, I may be wrong, but I think it is normally less than full battery voltage because of a resistor in the wiring? Also, if he can find a helper, have someone squish the gas pedal while he looks at the carb. Just to make sure it is getting a good pump shot. If it is't, that would cause the exact issue he is seeing.
Our Chevelle has a choke plate, but is never used. Car doesn't normally get driven when it is below 40* here, but from high 40's to over 100*, the starting routine is the same, 2-3 pumps, short cranking, 2 more pumps and it generally starts right up then, or maybe 3rd try in cooler weather. BBC with HEI, hydraulic flat-tappet cam, (.575-ish lift, 244* @ .050 IIRC). 750 carb, (4160 type/3310).

There is a minuscule chance that the ignition switch is cutting off ignition power during cranking...
Do as Tom said and prime the carb, then the voltage check at the 12v input while cranking.

Even IF all the lifters "bled down", it would still start, or try to.

Does it have a Q-jet on it? They are known for leaking their fuel in the motor while sitting for a while. There is a fix for it though.

Update: There's no MSD on this car at this time, just an HEI. He checked voltage at the cap and 12.3 before cranking. While cranking it bounced between 9.1-9.3 He pumped it twice, spun it for 8 seconds with the throttle closed, pumped it 2 more times, cranked it 5-6 seconds and it tried to fire, 1 more pump and crank with the throttle cracked and it fired up. So maybe he was giving it way too much fuel or too little but Jim's procedure seems to have been somewhat better. 9.3 cranking seems wrong to me and probably doesn't help the issue any. He's pretty sure the wire to the HEI is coming from the Painless fuse box then to a toggle. He has some type of mini starter and also a Ford solenoid so lots of possible places to drop voltage.

Simplest way to verify it’s getting fuel before cranking is open the hood and look down carb BEFORE cranking then he can eliminate that possibly being the culprit instead of *****footing around like he is but then again it’s his car.

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Originally posted by green1:
Simplest way to verify it’s getting fuel before cranking is open the hood and look down carb BEFORE cranking then he can eliminate that possibly being the culprit instead of *****footing around like he is but then again it’s his car.

Looking at the pump shot was done long ago, before he called me. I did have him make sure it was all good this morning though.

quote:

Originally posted by Ron Gusack:
He checked voltage at the cap and 12.3 before cranking. While cranking it bounced between 9.1-9.3 - 9.3 cranking seems wrong to me and probably doesn't help the issue any. He's pretty sure the wire to the HEI is coming from the Painless fuse box then to a toggle. He has some type of mini starter and also a Ford solenoid so lots of possible places to drop voltage.

Ron, sounds like you are on the right track. That voltage does sound low. And yes, several potential voltage drops.
I will try to perform the same test on the Chevelle, and report what we see on the meter before and during cranking.