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virginia DOT regulations for race teams
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DRR Pro
Picture of TORQIN
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I have been (written on citation) warned in Texas for over length as I am 88 feet 10 inches...application put in for over length permit...denied...wont issue to an RV as it is currently declared exempt by law. Last attempt 2017.

Its clearly a mess with no single agency having the same interpretation.
 
Posts: 1754 | Location: Houston, Tx. | Registered: November 27, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of FootbrakeJim
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quote:
Originally posted by TORQIN:
I have been (written on citation) warned in Texas for over length as I am 88 feet 10 inches...application put in for over length permit...denied...wont issue to an RV as it is currently declared exempt by law. Last attempt 2017.

Its clearly a mess with no single agency having the same interpretation.

^^^ Clearly a mess. And I suspect it is a mess in all 50 states. At least we don't get all the CDL and DOT BS here in TX though...


Dan "Jim" Moore
Much too young to feel this damn old!!
 
Posts: 1045 | Location: Farmersville, TX  | Registered: December 05, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
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Malaby Racing posted a very good link HERE that explains the FMCSA rules that ALL states have adopted this federal regulation.

Chris, read the very last page of the above link “RV’s AND THE USDOT NUMBERING REQUIREMENTS”, Says You Are Legal !!

Going through the actual laws from the FMCSA using the link today, I firmly believe that my racing, just like many others is actually a Hobby and the FMCSA confirms this.

I’m going to pick apart the video that this State of VA trooper is presenting.

5 minutes into his video he put up a page that says “Prize Winnings” is a business and make you commercial. Show me the law in the FMCSA that states this as shown in the video. This is Incorrect as listed in the article to FMCSA and only his opinion.

The remainder of the video has you now being a Commercial Motor Vehicle based on his introduction.

48 minutes into the video he puts up the “Motorsports Exemption” page. What you see here is the FMCSA laws to the “Exact” same information that was provided by Malaby Racing link. What the trooper now says while explaining this Exemption is a LIE !!!! This Exemption is for not having to be to be Commercial and now you are Non-Commercial and because of this you are NOT required to have a dot registration. Read the Exemption Laws! The Exemption is NOT for the IRS which he explicitly states. That is a LIE!

Nowhere in the FMCSA does it say you have to provide your tax return information to the DOT of that state PERIOD! Have him show us this. Lies!! Besides, if you never received a 1099 for racing it wouldn’t be on your tax form.

I also contacted my insurance company today to find out what my coverages include when towing my trailer that is also insured. I was told by my agent that the liability coverage on my truck also applies to my trailer. Because I have a Umbrella policy for $1 Million , my truck and trailer now have $1 Million in Liability coverage that will cover the $1M Liability coverage required in VA. My umbrella policy costs $170 a year and covers everything I have insured. Be advised, you will be required to have much greater Liability on your vehicles and other insured items to qualify for Umbrella coverage. My agent is also sending me a form stating this coverage.
 
Posts: 2484 | Location: 53056 | Registered: December 30, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of Dave Koehler
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Kind of related
From an Indiana guy.
Here is a guy who has been mowing yards and doing a bit of landscaping. His equipment and income has become a full time gig. He has now gotten to the point he figured he better learn the rules.
Three parts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VlEU6-4YoY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=099xOqqVm54

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLXoR34SaOw


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Posts: 353 | Location: Urbana, IL 61802 | Registered: December 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of Mike Nitzsche
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quote:
Originally posted by markemark:
Malaby Racing posted a very good link HERE that explains the FMCSA rules that ALL states have adopted this federal regulation.

Chris, read the very last page of the above link “RV’s AND THE USDOT NUMBERING REQUIREMENTS”, Says You Are Legal !!

Going through the actual laws from the FMCSA using the link today, I firmly believe that my racing, just like many others is actually a Hobby and the FMCSA confirms this.

I’m going to pick apart the video that this State of VA trooper is presenting.

5 minutes into his video he put up a page that says “Prize Winnings” is a business and make you commercial. Show me the law in the FMCSA that states this as shown in the video. This is Incorrect as listed in the article to FMCSA and only his opinion.

The remainder of the video has you now being a Commercial Motor Vehicle based on his introduction.

48 minutes into the video he puts up the “Motorsports Exemption” page. What you see here is the FMCSA laws to the “Exact” same information that was provided by Malaby Racing link. What the trooper now says while explaining this Exemption is a LIE !!!! This Exemption is for not having to be to be Commercial and now you are Non-Commercial and because of this you are NOT required to have a dot registration. Read the Exemption Laws! The Exemption is NOT for the IRS which he explicitly states. That is a LIE!

Nowhere in the FMCSA does it say you have to provide your tax return information to the DOT of that state PERIOD! Have him show us this. Lies!! Besides, if you never received a 1099 for racing it wouldn’t be on your tax form.

I also contacted my insurance company today to find out what my coverages include when towing my trailer that is also insured. I was told by my agent that the liability coverage on my truck also applies to my trailer. Because I have a Umbrella policy for $1 Million , my truck and trailer now have $1 Million in Liability coverage that will cover the $1M Liability coverage required in VA. My umbrella policy costs $170 a year and covers everything I have insured. Be advised, you will be required to have much greater Liability on your vehicles and other insured items to qualify for Umbrella coverage. My agent is also sending me a form stating this coverage.


EXACTLY! This is why I wish I was there to clarify these things. I've done countless hours of research. I have called and talked to many DOT officers about this, stating exactly that I have a truck conversion motorhome towing a two car stacker trailer weighing 50K#'s combined. After explaining to them about my FMSCA non commercial guidance, they have all agreed I have no need for any commercial actions or credentials. It's all up to that one officer though that may have a hard on to ruin your weekend.
 
Posts: 1364 | Location: Lansing,Mi | Registered: March 20, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of Mike Nitzsche
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I'll also add that the Indiana DOT has a nice Facebook page for communicating with people about laws and rules. Last week I was chatting with the officer about Indiana's length law of 60'. In Indiana, legally, nothing can be over a combined length of 60' unless it has a fifth wheel hitch, then the length is limited to a max trailer length of 53'.
 
Posts: 1364 | Location: Lansing,Mi | Registered: March 20, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
Picture of Eman
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I've got a CDL with doubles and triples,tanker and Haz mat endorsements. As others have said it's all about the LEO and how Gung-Ho he is from the most recent training session and how he is going to rid the state of the illegal racers. I'd say the video cop has just had his butt pumped full of sunshine and was going to straighten out those no good racers and set them straight that there's a law in this town. This has all been gone over countless times and the last time the big decision was in how you file your taxes for your racing operation.
I pulled double 28's all over Indiana and I believe you can pull triples on some roads there.
 
Posts: 1471 | Location: E TN | Registered: February 13, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post



DRR Pro
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IMHO if you have MH / RV plates on your tow vehicle and use the correct transponders for any toll roads you travel, you can bypass any weigh station like Torqin stated ( FMCSA laws) and toll road entrances length discretion when traveling.

As for the OP link to the Video Information Presentation provided by the Trooper from VA DOT, this should be reviewed by the “ VA DOT State Experts” that govern these laws. IMHO this Trooper is not advising by FMCSA law in the best interest of the racers .

In his presentation he waves the FMCSA book when referring to travel through multiple states ( VA, WV, PA) as though you are a CMV which is not true.

The burden of proof is on THEM not YOU when traveling through the state as a Hobby racer. Read the FMCSA laws that your state (all 50) adopt.
 
Posts: 2484 | Location: 53056 | Registered: December 30, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
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I got pulled over in PA few years ago. Be very careful what you tell the officers. I made the mistake of saying yes to his question of can I win money. That immediately kicks you into engaging in commerce, which requires DOT tags.

He kept pressuring me prior on how I could own a rig, my occupation, etc. I was extremely cooperative thinking the whole time he was just doing his job.. During that time I even opened the trailer to let him look around thinking he would realize it was not full of drugs or stolen cars. That made things even worse. Think he because very jealous, and his line of questioning got even more vague looking for a reason. Finally DOT showed up and pulled me aside to talk. I had at that point been there for 2 plus hours, missed the race.. Kids were crying and I was pissed. Long and short tooper told me until it was stickered it had to sit along the road! Told him not sure how long his shift was but I was going into rv and as soon as he leaves I'm pulling it out and going home.... It's not sitting along the road to be hit or stolen so he then had something worth worrying about.

DOT never have me anything and I got 400in fines from trooper for insp that rv dealer month before told me they took care of and my fault I didn't double check. Dealer paid the fine.

Long story short.. From now on I'm going camping, camping and 4 wheeled toys are in the trailer. I do can at track and my toys have 4 wheels. No commerce engagement. Because I said that the dot guy told me he could fine me but said the trooper is an ass and dot guy just wanted to get me on my way.

Depends on the guy you get pulled over by...



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Posts: 1444 | Location: St Marys | Registered: January 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of pentastarrail
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Ski,
That sux.
That's exactly the issue, the police "THINK" they know the laws, THEY DO NOT.
But they can make your life miserable if they choose to.
Winning prize money is NOT a commercial business, no matter what the police THINK, however you can't argue with them either.

Very seldom will the DOT come after an RV unless something is glaringly wrong, they know RV's are exempt.
Now towing a 32 foot triple enclosed with a dually, the DOT may pull you over and check for a CDL.
I know around here (in CT) the past few years they have been going after the landscapers with 1 tons with enclosed trailers for not having CDL's which is needed.

Frown


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Posts: 955 | Location: Winchester, Connecticut | Registered: September 20, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Top Comp
Picture of Curly1
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quote:
Originally posted by ski_dwn_it:


Depends on the guy you get pulled over by...


That right there is the problem and if someone was to push for a firm and definitive answer from them not sure we would like the answer. With the laws being rather vague as long as you are nice and police is not a total jerk should not be an issue. (Most of the time) With more definitive laws I think there would be zero tolerance.


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Before you argue with someone ask yourself, "Is this person mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of a different perspective?" If not there is no point to argue.

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Posts: 4043 | Location: United States of Texas | Registered: April 02, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
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Markemark, in my experience the burden of proof is on YOU with DMV. You pay up front for tickets, then go through the appeal process to prove your innocence. If you win you get your money back.
 
Posts: 526 | Location: Southeast | Registered: March 14, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of Mike Nitzsche
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A loophole I thought of a while back is FMSCA rules pretty much only apply if your commercial. So if you non commercial and out of state, you are subject to that states laws. A states law may read "racing for a purse is considered commerce". I'm just saying you need to look at both sides.
 
Posts: 1364 | Location: Lansing,Mi | Registered: March 20, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
Picture of TORQIN
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Bingo has a "purse", so do casino's...any known court cases dealing with these type of scenarios?

What about slot car racing...pays a purse...definitely not commercial. The debate can go on and on. Be sure to ask the officer if his dash cam is on recording your discussions...attorneys and judges have to hear your defense of non commercial while driving around in your RV...
 
Posts: 1754 | Location: Houston, Tx. | Registered: November 27, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post



DRR Sportsman
Picture of Mike Nitzsche
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quote:
Originally posted by TORQIN:
Bingo has a "purse", so do casino's...any known court cases dealing with these type of scenarios?

What about slot car racing...pays a purse...definitely not commercial. The debate can go on and on. Be sure to ask the officer if his dash cam is on recording your discussions...attorneys and judges have to hear your defense of non commercial while driving around in your RV...


I thought of that, but with the exception of motorhomes at the casino, all that stuff uses vehicles under 26001#. I'm on your side, but I always try to look at both it from both ways.
 
Posts: 1364 | Location: Lansing,Mi | Registered: March 20, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
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I support our cops to the 9th degree and as I said for the first 20mintues I was not offended at all by being pulled over. THe guy was doing his job and my fault for not having an inspection as required. Deserved a fine which the dealer "forgot" and they made good on - they also paid for 6 new tires which I suspect was the reason they "forgot" - tires had great tread but one had some cracks from age so I insisted they change them and they did for my troubles.

The DOT guy even said things are so vague it boils down to a lot of what the cops/DOT want to do. My issues came from the trooper just wanting to "know" more about the entire setup.

I have to honestly say I am LUCKY my hitch rating was 10k because the DOT guy checked that, crawled underneath, referred to some manual and came back saying - your hitch and trailer are matched and your fortunate the unit comes equipped/rated - some "guys" things they can put on a heavier hitch and be ok. If you did that you would be getting a severe fine. The RV dealer warned me of this when I was looking at class A and he learned I would be trailering a race program. He flat out told me most all class As are illegal and only rated for 5k. That is why I bought the RV I did with the rating. Otherwise, my story would be worse I think.

The RV dealer scared me pointing that out, and explaining that all these things will be checked in the event of a crash and even if someone pulled out in front of me and DOT/Police check these things and find the RV is only rated for 5k, and your pulling 10k your going to be up a creek BIGTIME. Especially if someone is killed. The RV I did get was actually less money than the class A I was looking at....so the dealer in that sense did me a favor.

So I would be more worried about a crash involving injuries than the police or DOT. Nowadays everyone is suing happy and a big fancy RV and trailer is just big $$$$$ target.
 
Posts: 1444 | Location: St Marys | Registered: January 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Elite
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Really good points Ski. I will say, not every officer will check all those things, even in the case of an accident. Now, if the hitch breaks, you can bet they will be looking over everything associated with it. And you are right, all of them are human, and different in the way they interpret the laws. The wording of each states laws and the differences between states are a hot mess, and even lower the safety for all of us ultimately.


Foxtrot Juliet Bravo
 
Posts: 6416 | Location: Illinois | Registered: July 08, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
Picture of TORQIN
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I had an accident in Florida in December on the way home from the Palm Beach new years race...I rear ended a guy going 28 mph on I-10 I was going 70 when I slammed the brakes and literally crushed this guys camper and truck combination...considered my fault...no DOT, state troopers looked at my race cars in trailer just out of straight curiosity...no problems, did not check anything else on my rig...I have a class A non CDL license from Texas.

Injury was later claimed...if a fatality would have occurred I sure it would have been handled differently. His insurance is still going after my insurance as we speak.

Thank god no one was hurt as the fellow claimed injuries 3 days after the wreck...guy refused ambulance and WAS CLEARLY NOT HURT!
 
Posts: 1754 | Location: Houston, Tx. | Registered: November 27, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
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quote:
Originally posted by Phil Dees:
Markemark, in my experience the burden of proof is on YOU with DMV. You pay up front for tickets, then go through the appeal process to prove your innocence. If you win you get your money back.


You know Phil, you’re probably right. Be prepared.

So I made copies of the pertinent FMCSA regulations, definitions, my insurance, my recent 1040 and the article written in National Motorists Association.

I’m also going to call my local State Patrol office and ask if I can bring my truck/ trailer in for an inspection to verify I have everything in order.
 
Posts: 2484 | Location: 53056 | Registered: December 30, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
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Its like any profession - with personal experience one thing will be looked at by one individual and another individual will see a glaring issue.

One cop that sees a fatality involving a rig overweight and finds that to be the root cause will check it all the time when given the opportunity. Another will overlook it every time even in an accident. Nobody really expects these guys to know everything the law outlines.
 
Posts: 1444 | Location: St Marys | Registered: January 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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