Bracket Talk
T&D vs. Jesel
November 11, 2021, 08:22 AM
Mike RietowT&D vs. Jesel
quote:
Originally posted by NC3x58:
At what load/spring pressure is a steel rocker recommended over aluminum? I imagine RPM is also a factor in this..?
We had aluminum rockers on this to start out with, I wish they were T&D's because I think they would've saw some service.
We broke a JESEL aluminum loading it on the trailer, for the first time out trip to track.
400 on the seat, 1400 open. 1" lift cam, BES All Pro raised runners.
November 11, 2021, 08:25 AM
1320racerquote:
Originally posted by NC3x58:
At what load/spring pressure is a steel rocker recommended over aluminum? I imagine RPM is also a factor in this..?
My springs have less than 1000psi open pressure, my cam less than 1” gross lift and the engine turns less than 7800. Two upgrades I made on my 648 was going with .937 lifters and steel rockers, both of which Scott said I didn’t need to which I replied but I want. After 150+ passes, we haven’t hurt a rocker.
That said, with my 1100Hp 622 with aluminum T&D rockers and SS valves, we’d hurt at least one rocker, the trunion every season turning less than 7600.
November 11, 2021, 08:32 AM
Mike Rietowquote:
Originally posted by NC3x58:
At what load/spring pressure is a steel rocker recommended over aluminum? I imagine RPM is also a factor in this..?
Intuition, the RR sbc could / has the potential to make power to 9000 rpm, if you think it'll live there.
November 11, 2021, 08:41 AM
1320racerThis is bracket talk, not wanna be heads up talk, comp talk or street outlaws talk!
November 11, 2021, 08:47 AM
Mike RietowPushrod drag racing is pushrod drag racing.
HP = Torque x RPM ÷ 5252
November 11, 2021, 08:47 AM
TOP38quote:
Originally posted by NC3x58:
At what load/spring pressure is a steel rocker recommended over aluminum? I imagine RPM is also a factor in this..?
It's not just spring pressure but a combo of that, cam profile and rpm!
Also need to consider the combo, blown and NOS combo's have much more cylinder pressure so there's more opening load on the exhaust side. On these combos, using a steel ex rocker is a real good idea.
In the big picture, breaking an intake rocker is not a big deal,,, but if you break an exhaust rocker at WOT, it's usually going to break something else like a that cylinder's intake lifter, intake rocker or stud, bend the intake push rod or pull the threads out on the intake side or bust the head. Once the exhaust rocker breaks all the exhaust pressure is trapped in that cylinder so when the intake tries to open there is a buss load of added load there!
November 11, 2021, 08:55 AM
TOP38TD vs Jesel - Both have their pro's and con's. Your typical AL BBC rockers - TD have a much better trunnion bearing but Jesel's roller tips are better.
With TD, if you get the needle bearing roller tips, depending on your spring and cam combo, figure 300 to 500 runs and you will need new needle bearings and an axle installed. The axle is the issue, it wears the loaded side. If you have these when you push on the roller tip where it contacts the valve and roll it, it will feel gritty, you can also feel this when you run the valves if you pay attention if the axle is worn out. If it rolls smooth, they are still good. This is not an issue if your rockers don't have the needle bearing tip option! But this style roller tip adds side loading on the valves and can cause faster valve guide wear vs the needle bearing tips. Pick your poison!
November 11, 2021, 09:02 AM
TOP38quote:
Originally posted by 1320racer:
This is bracket talk, not wanna be heads up talk, comp talk or street outlaws talk!
Ed
Who is this Comp/Street Outlaws racer you speak of?
Did I mention I love the IGNORE feature!
November 11, 2021, 09:05 AM
1320racer
TOP38…KNOWS
November 11, 2021, 10:27 AM
NC3x58quote:
Originally posted by TOP38:
TD vs Jesel - Both have their pro's and con's. Your typical AL BBC rockers - TD have a much better trunnion bearing but Jesel's roller tips are better.
With TD, if you get the needle bearing roller tips, depending on your spring and cam combo, figure 300 to 500 runs and you will need new needle bearings and an axle installed. The axle is the issue, it wears the loaded side. If you have these when you push on the roller tip where it contacts the valve and roll it, it will feel gritty, you can also feel this when you run the valves if you pay attention if the axle is worn out. If it rolls smooth, they are still good. This is not an issue if your rockers don't have the needle bearing tip option! But this style roller tip adds side loading on the valves and can cause faster valve guide wear vs the needle bearing tips. Pick your poison!
So going off of this, how long should you run the trunnion bearing on the Jesel before replacing? In todays instance it seems that whichever is available is your better option but if one is truly much better than the other then it could be worth the wait..
Nick Craig
1971 Camaro Split Bumper
376ci LS3
November 11, 2021, 11:16 AM
Curly1I choose Crower for the new motor I am building. Well they said it would be 3 to 4 weeks. Then after about 16 weeks they finally said they could not do it and I was back to scratch.
I like the T&D but they would have taken too long to get these. I was able to get the Jesel in about 4 weeks after wasting all of that time with Crower and I think the Jesel "Look" better than the T&D.
On my motors I have 1 set of Crower, one set of T&D and 2 sets of Jesel pros? Crower being my first choice if you could get them. All are nice and good quality. I do not know about the Jesel Sportsmans but the Pro are really nice. The T&D do look rather crude compared to the Crower or Jesel but they are good and have worked well.
https://postimg.cc/gallery/np3zpruo/"Dunning-Kruger Effect"
-a type of Cognitive bias where people with little expertise or ability assume they have superior expertise or ability. This overestimation occurs as a result of the fact that they do not have enough knowledge to know they don't have enough knowledge.
Before you argue with someone ask yourself, "Is this person mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of a different perspective?" If not there is no point to argue.
4X NE2 CHAMPION. 2020 TDRA NE2 Champion
November 11, 2021, 11:36 AM
TOP38quote:
Originally posted by NC3x58:
quote:
Originally posted by TOP38:
TD vs Jesel - Both have their pro's and con's. Your typical AL BBC rockers - TD have a much better trunnion bearing but Jesel's roller tips are better.
With TD, if you get the needle bearing roller tips, depending on your spring and cam combo, figure 300 to 500 runs and you will need new needle bearings and an axle installed. The axle is the issue, it wears the loaded side. If you have these when you push on the roller tip where it contacts the valve and roll it, it will feel gritty, you can also feel this when you run the valves if you pay attention if the axle is worn out. If it rolls smooth, they are still good. This is not an issue if your rockers don't have the needle bearing tip option! But this style roller tip adds side loading on the valves and can cause faster valve guide wear vs the needle bearing tips. Pick your poison!
So going off of this, how long should you run the trunnion bearing on the Jesel before replacing? In todays instance it seems that whichever is available is your better option but if one is truly much better than the other then it could be worth the wait..
I can't give you an answer for that question since I don't know. If you look at both rockers side by side you will see how much larger the TD's are vs Jesel. Like anything else, the harder you run them, the more maintenance they need.
November 11, 2021, 11:37 AM
TOP38quote:
Originally posted by Curly1:
I choose Crower for the new motor I am building. Well they said it would be 3 to 4 weeks. Then after about 16 weeks they finally said they could not do it and I was back to scratch.
I like the T&D but they would have taken too long to get these. I was able to get the Jesel in about 4 weeks after wasting all of that time with Crower and I think the Jesel "Look" better than the T&D.
On my motors I have 1 set of Crower, one set of T&D and 2 sets of Jesel pros? Crower being my first choice if you could get them. All are nice and good quality. I do not know about the Jesel Sportsmans but the Pro are really nice. The T&D do look rather crude compared to the Crower or Jesel but they are good and have worked well.
One of the main reason why racers buy the wrong parts! Because this looks better than that!!!!!
November 11, 2021, 11:41 AM
Mike RietowJust from experience,I could see the JESEL aluminum wouldn't live on this combo. It's a lighter material than a T&D. A T&D aluminum rocker I'd say would break periodically, the JESEL broke loading the car on the trailer after surviving lots of dyno run time. T&D aluminum rocker definitely over JESEL Aluminum.
The un-trained Eye can see T&D steel rocker is a crude less expensive design than a JESEL steel rocker.
November 11, 2021, 11:41 AM
1320racerAgain, TOP38…KNOWS and retard as well curly cue hasn’t a clue!
November 11, 2021, 11:42 AM
BG7X77As I understand that T&D was first developed due to Jesel not being open to changes on their design in terms of oiling. I don't know the players personally or details but have read that story several times in various places. Good Ole American capitalism. If you won't build it for Me, I will. Now T&D is a major player ...wonder if Jesel regrets that decision now. Probably a significant cut into their market share over the years and based on the tenor of this thread I suspect it will continue to be.
BG
November 11, 2021, 12:09 PM
Mike Rietowquote:
Originally posted by TOP38:
TD vs Jesel - Both have their pro's and con's. Your typical AL BBC rockers - TD have a much better trunnion bearing but Jesel's roller tips are better.
With TD, if you get the needle bearing roller tips, depending on your spring and cam combo, figure 300 to 500 runs and you will need new needle bearings and an axle installed. The axle is the issue, it wears the loaded side. If you have these when you push on the roller tip where it contacts the valve and roll it, it will feel gritty, you can also feel this when you run the valves if you pay attention if the axle is worn out. If it rolls smooth, they are still good. This is not an issue if your rockers don't have the needle bearing tip option! But this style roller tip adds side loading on the valves and can cause faster valve guide wear vs the needle bearing tips. Pick your poison!
quote:
Originally posted by 1320racer:
TOP38…KNOWS
No he doesn't, and neither do you. You don't even know what you have on your own car, because you're a know nothing, do nothing midget, who couldn't make a rock drop out of a tree fast without a checkbook.
A steel rocker has no "trunnion bearing", it has a pressed fit bronze bushing, midget.
November 11, 2021, 12:20 PM
1320racerWhere did I say it did retard? Answer…I didn’t you clueless liar.
November 11, 2021, 12:23 PM
Mike Rietowquote:
Originally posted by 1320racer:
Again, TOP38…KNOWS and retard as well curly cue hasn’t a clue!
November 11, 2021, 12:39 PM
Joneszquote:
Originally posted by TOP38:
TD vs Jesel - Both have their pro's and con's. Your typical AL BBC rockers - TD have a much better trunnion bearing but Jesel's roller tips are better.
With TD, if you get the needle bearing roller tips, depending on your spring and cam combo, figure 300 to 500 runs and you will need new needle bearings and an axle installed. The axle is the issue, it wears the loaded side. If you have these when you push on the roller tip where it contacts the valve and roll it, it will feel gritty, you can also feel this when you run the valves if you pay attention if the axle is worn out. If it rolls smooth, they are still good. This is not an issue if your rockers don't have the needle bearing tip option! But this style roller tip adds side loading on the valves and can cause faster valve guide wear vs the needle bearing tips. Pick your poison!
Rietow
"typical AL BBC rockers" Steel not mentioned DA