quote:

Originally posted by racerdude2054:

quote:

Originally posted by RacerVX54:
Say what you want but less then 2 bucks a gallon is better then 16 a gallon any day of the week.. That said i would go injection with the primer plus

You’re getting drums of methanol with top lube right now for 100 bucks or less a drum?

Actually its about 140-150 a drum. A big group about 30 of us buy in bulk every feb. Its been as low as 130... Most guys buy 3-4 drums at a time.

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Originally posted by Curly1:One other thing about O2 sensors or even timing do not go by what so and so says it needs to be. Your O2 System or calibration on it or timing light may be a little different and your motor may be different. My motor likes 28*-30* timing and 12.9 to 13.1 (I use the gas scale)on the O2.

The O2 sensor is reading methanol at 12.9 – 13.1 calibrated to the gas scale, but is actually 5.6 – 5.7 on methanol scale when converted ??

quote:

Originally posted by markemark:

quote:

Originally posted by Curly1:One other thing about O2 sensors or even timing do not go by what so and so says it needs to be. Your O2 System or calibration on it or timing light may be a little different and your motor may be different. My motor likes 28*-30* timing and 12.9 to 13.1 (I use the gas scale)on the O2.

The O2 sensor is reading methanol at 12.9 – 13.1 calibrated to the gas scale, but is actually 5.6 – 5.7 on methanol scale when converted ??

I do not know exactly what it converts out to. The sensor actually reads 0-5 MV and the unit translates that to one of the scales of your choice. Gas, Alcohol or Lambda scale what ever you want.

P.S. Private message returned.

In March 2021 I installed a digital dash to clean up the older analog gauges, and at the same time put a Holley ECU in that I could learn what AFR the MFI was during idle, on 2-step, WOT and running on gas with a Primer Plus. Holley uses an expensive NTK O2 sensor specifically for methanol.

On the methanol scale with MFI, engine idling at 3.5 and WOT at 5.2 – 5.3 is fastest and most mph. Uses just over half a gallon with a sbc.

In July I switch intake manifolds to EFI on methanol. Just followed the same AFR settings MFI liked to start with. I’m only 80 runs into EFI injection on methanol, but understand now how easy it is to manipulate the desired fuel delivery. I also kept the Primer Plus and run with it same as with MFI.

As much as I liked the MFI methanol (ran 15yrs), the EFI methanol is better and could not go back now.

With EFI you have the potential to tune it so it will not use as much fuel and still run very good.

Since Mechanical injection does not have squirter nozzles and accelerator pumps like a carb we have to run them real fat at low RPM.

With EFI you can tune it better if you know how. So the potential is there to be better than MFI or a carb on gas or alcohol. I am not allowed to run EFI in the classes I run so I have not got to try it yet.

I'm not criticizing anyone but why don't more people use Lamba?

Just seems easier for me.

Just asking.

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why don't more people use Lamba?

When I select the fuel type in Holley HP/Dominator it displays in the corresponding scale. I’m using that same scale values to program the Target AFR map. The Data Acquisition displays in the same values.

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Originally posted by M120:
I'm not criticizing anyone but why don't more people use Lamba?

Just seems easier for me.

Just asking.

If it is easier for you to use Lambda then that is reason enough for you to use it.

I used the gas scale simply because the Dyno we used was using the gas scale and I told him no need to change it. I am more familiar with it anyway. So that is what I have been using since.

If you have to run MFI overly rich at idle you may need to look at nozzle sizing. Small nozzles will require smaller main jet in order to get enough fuel thru them. If run slightly larger nozzles you will have larger main also. You will have lower pressure system and at low pressure at low rpm nozzles will not flow as much.Atomazation will suffer.

Getting it right is just like most things.A matter of balance.Just takes little work or paying someone to flow system and set up for you.
While I agree EFI has thousand of ways to manipulate fuel systems and may be easier to a lot of folks. IMO it just makes simple thing ten times more complicated. I have worked with few guys who run EFI and understand it pretty well.I don't get full understanding of whats happening with the working of pieces that don't exist.more like black magic than mechanical

Alky injection will get that thing to run with a good q16 carb and gas 90% of the year. The 10% of the year that the weather is good, the q will be faster. I would expect the injection to pick the car up roughly .1 over the single alky carb.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 329L:
Alky injection will get that thing to run with a good q16 carb and gas 90% of the year. The 10% of the year that the weather is good, the q will be faster. I would expect the injection to pick the car up roughly .1 over the single alky carb.[/QUOTE

I’d think a whole .1 is wishful thinking !

I agree wishful thinking. Gas carb for the WIN!

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Originally posted by DRB Motorsports:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by 329L:
Alky injection will get that thing to run with a good q16 carb and gas 90% of the year. The 10% of the year that the weather is good, the q will be faster. I would expect the injection to pick the car up roughly .1 over the single alky carb.[/QUOTE

I’d think a whole .1 is wishful thinking !

Real world data: A good ten years ago I ran a 565 BBC with a Terminator. Around this time APD was working on their carbs, both alky and gas. APD sent me a gas carb to try vs the Terminator. It was a piece that was a good fit for my combo, not one specifically built for it. I back to back both combos one weekend, ran the gas carb on Saturday and the Terminator on Sunday. The net results for this combo was that the injection was close to a tenth faster. There may have been a few more hundredths left in the carb tuning but the alky injection was the clear winner. Since that time carbs have evolved and improved so I'd expect this same test would yield much closer results.

For anyone running alky, carb or injection, if your milking the oil, it's not tuned correctly! There is no reason to milk the oil.

MFI vs EFI - Both work and unless your stop racing or love messing with computers and tune ups, go MFI. Way less complicated! Also try to find a failed EFI sensor when one goes bad at the track!

quote:

Originally posted by DRB Motorsports:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by 329L:
Alky injection will get that thing to run with a good q16 carb and gas 90% of the year. The 10% of the year that the weather is good, the q will be faster. I would expect the injection to pick the car up roughly .1 over the single alky carb.[/QUOTE


I’d think a whole .1 is wishful thinking !

Not when comparing to a single alky carb with an engine that big. Its impossible to get the quality of fuel with single alky carb on an engine that big.

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Originally posted by TOP38:

quote:

Originally posted by DRB Motorsports:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by 329L:
Alky injection will get that thing to run with a good q16 carb and gas 90% of the year. The 10% of the year that the weather is good, the q will be faster. I would expect the injection to pick the car up roughly .1 over the single alky carb.[/QUOTE


I’d think a whole .1 is wishful thinking !

Real world data: A good ten years ago I ran a 565 BBC with a Terminator. Around this time APD was working on their carbs, both alky and gas. APD sent me a gas carb to try vs the Terminator. It was a piece that was a good fit for my combo, not one specifically built for it. I back to back both combos one weekend, ran the gas carb on Saturday and the Terminator on Sunday. The net results for this combo was that the injection was close to a tenth faster. There may have been a few more hundredths left in the carb tuning but the alky injection was the clear winner. Since that time carbs have evolved and improved so I'd expect this same test would yield much closer results.

For anyone running alky, carb or injection, if your milking the oil, it's not tuned correctly! There is no reason to milk the oil.

MFI vs EFI - Both work and unless your stop racing or love messing with computers and tune ups, go MFI. Way less complicated! Also try to find a failed EFI sensor when one goes bad at the track!

no milkshake. just wanted a purdy carb. looking like it have to be a black terminator! got trying to make an effort with another carb builder. wont return my calls.

ATM Innovations or Pro Systems

Nothing for nothing, I've milkshaked oil before in the 90's using MFI.

Now, I can run MFI or an Alky carb without milking oil. I use Mobil1 synthetic as well. Get the tune right and all will be well.

No primer, never had one and don't think it's needed. Squirt it with some gas at first start up. Once the engine is warm and has fuel to the bowls/barrel valve you should be good to go. Use the idle valve or barrel valve to control heat or consumption of fuel.

I do lean it out to 200°+ at the end of the night. No milk, no moisture.

I've also been at a race interrupted by snow flurries!

injection should be worth 7% power

My Sbc is a tenth faster with a 1475 terminator vs 1050 alcohol carb. I’d say mainly from the CFM difference. Now consistency between the two injection was hands down more consistent as long as i was willing to put the time in to tune it for the weather. Injection is pumping the same fuel every pass so it needs tweaked for weather changes where a carb will tune itself a little with weather changes as it will draw more or less fuel. Having said that im putting two 1050 alcohol carbs on to start the year and hoping to get them as good as the injection working with the carb builder and hoping to be as fast as the injection, As far as gas to alcohol it all depends on the combo as a sbc,24 degree BBC will almost always be faster on alcohol. 20, 18, 12 degree engines will always be faster on gas. As for fuel usage i use just over 1 gallon driving up, making a pass and driving back, i only use the primer to start the car and use leanout to warm the car up. Leave the line at 150 and im at 150 when i pull back in to the trailer.

quote:

Originally posted by rusty:
injection should be worth 7% power

We made more HP and torque on the dyno with alcohol injection on a 632. Real world data was that the gas carb was faster