quote:

Originally posted by 329L:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Rietow:

quote:

Originally posted by 329L:

quote:

Originally posted by Goob:

quote:

Originally posted by 329L:
100 HP GIVE OR TAKE.....

Damnit!! That's about what I came up with too.

New engine is a real disappointment so far.

Something else to think about. Sometimes you have to build a higher stall converter to utilize a combonation. I had a customer that had a 421 sbc with 23 degree heads that ran 5.90s. Converter would go 6200 and the engine made 710 hp. Put a set of 13 degree heads on same short block, engine made 840. We used same converter and it only stalled 5800 and only ran .05 faster than 23 degree engine. We built a new converter with less pump, and more stator, and the converter stalled 6700, and car picked up to mid 5.70s. Sometimes, a converter has to be changed to get the engine happy so that it will run.

Impossible

Fantasy story

**CANT believe i actually clicked the hide post button to see what you said**

But, it is possible, and with the 3 different brand converters, and several different converters from those 3 companies each and every converter company said same thing, that the converter needed to be looser to allow the engine to get where it needed to run. You have to rememeber, it doesnt matter what them dynos say, if the engine cant accelerate it wont run right down the track. The particular engine i am talking about built awesome power on the dyno, but it didnt want to pull rpm on the dyno either. We went from a "B" pump and 41 degree stator to a B pump and a 35 degree stator which shouldnt have raised stall more than 200-300 rpm, but instead it picked up 700 rpm and was .1 faster and 4 mph. As a trans/converter guy, i can make your 30k engine look bad, and i can make your garage built engine look like a hero more than people realize.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Rietow:

quote:

Originally posted by 329L:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Rietow:

quote:

Originally posted by 329L:

quote:

Originally posted by Goob:

quote:

Originally posted by 329L:
100 HP GIVE OR TAKE.....

Damnit!! That's about what I came up with too.

New engine is a real disappointment so far.

Something else to think about. Sometimes you have to build a higher stall converter to utilize a combonation. I had a customer that had a 421 sbc with 23 degree heads that ran 5.90s. Converter would go 6200 and the engine made 710 hp. Put a set of 13 degree heads on same short block, engine made 840. We used same converter and it only stalled 5800 and only ran .05 faster than 23 degree engine. We built a new converter with less pump, and more stator, and the converter stalled 6700, and car picked up to mid 5.70s. Sometimes, a converter has to be changed to get the engine happy so that it will run.

Impossible

Fantasy story

**CANT believe i actually clicked the hide post button to see what you said**

But, it is possible, and with the 3 different brand converters, and several different converters from those 3 companies each and every converter company said same thing, that the converter needed to be looser to allow the engine to get where it needed to run. You have to rememeber, it doesnt matter what them dynos say, if the engine cant accelerate it wont run right down the track. The particular engine i am talking about built awesome power on the dyno, but it didnt want to pull rpm on the dyno either. We went from a "B" pump and 41 degree stator to a B pump and a 35 degree stator which shouldnt have raised stall more than 200-300 rpm, but instead it picked up 700 rpm and was .1 faster and 4 mph. As a trans/converter guy, i can make your 30k engine look bad, and i can make your garage built engine look like a hero more than people realize.

If you have an engine that makes 710hp with an obeserved stall of 6200 and you take that converter and put it behind an engine that makes 840hp, the new stall is easily predicted beforehand. The new observed stall, will be the old observed stall divided by the square root of torque of the new engine.

You are what you do, not what you say you do. If you don't know the fundamental principles, you can say you're a trans & converter guy all day long, but you're not.

The converter is the dyno.

Lower observed stall is lower engine output period.

Higher observed stall is higher engine output period.

RPM = K x v/torque -

This is not a subjective matter.

quote:

Originally posted by Lenny5160:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Rietow:

quote:

Originally posted by 329L:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Rietow:

quote:

Originally posted by 329L:

quote:

Originally posted by Goob:

quote:

Originally posted by 329L:
100 HP GIVE OR TAKE.....

Damnit!! That's about what I came up with too.

New engine is a real disappointment so far.

Something else to think about. Sometimes you have to build a higher stall converter to utilize a combonation. I had a customer that had a 421 sbc with 23 degree heads that ran 5.90s. Converter would go 6200 and the engine made 710 hp. Put a set of 13 degree heads on same short block, engine made 840. We used same converter and it only stalled 5800 and only ran .05 faster than 23 degree engine. We built a new converter with less pump, and more stator, and the converter stalled 6700, and car picked up to mid 5.70s. Sometimes, a converter has to be changed to get the engine happy so that it will run.

Impossible

Fantasy story

**CANT believe i actually clicked the hide post button to see what you said**

But, it is possible, and with the 3 different brand converters, and several different converters from those 3 companies each and every converter company said same thing, that the converter needed to be looser to allow the engine to get where it needed to run. You have to rememeber, it doesnt matter what them dynos say, if the engine cant accelerate it wont run right down the track. The particular engine i am talking about built awesome power on the dyno, but it didnt want to pull rpm on the dyno either. We went from a "B" pump and 41 degree stator to a B pump and a 35 degree stator which shouldnt have raised stall more than 200-300 rpm, but instead it picked up 700 rpm and was .1 faster and 4 mph. As a trans/converter guy, i can make your 30k engine look bad, and i can make your garage built engine look like a hero more than people realize.

If you have an engine that makes 710hp with an obeserved stall of 6200 and you take that converter and put it behind an engine that makes 840hp, the new stall is easily predicted beforehand. The new observed stall, will be the old observed stall divided by the square root of torque of the new engine.

You are what you do, not what you say you do. If you don't know the fundamental principles, you can say you're a trans & converter guy all day long, but you're not.

The converter is the dyno.

Lower observed stall is lower engine output period.

Higher observed stall is higher engine output period.

RPM = K x v/torque -

This is not a subjective matter.

Absolutely insane take. The RPM at which the peak number was measured is a very important piece of the equation.

A 900 horse bracket BBC is not going to stall the same converter at the same RPM as a 900 horse Super Stock or Comp SBC.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Rietow:

quote:

Originally posted by Lenny5160:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Rietow:

quote:

Originally posted by 329L:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Rietow:

quote:

Originally posted by 329L:

quote:

Originally posted by Goob:

quote:

Originally posted by 329L:
100 HP GIVE OR TAKE.....

Damnit!! That's about what I came up with too.

New engine is a real disappointment so far.

Something else to think about. Sometimes you have to build a higher stall converter to utilize a combonation. I had a customer that had a 421 sbc with 23 degree heads that ran 5.90s. Converter would go 6200 and the engine made 710 hp. Put a set of 13 degree heads on same short block, engine made 840. We used same converter and it only stalled 5800 and only ran .05 faster than 23 degree engine. We built a new converter with less pump, and more stator, and the converter stalled 6700, and car picked up to mid 5.70s. Sometimes, a converter has to be changed to get the engine happy so that it will run.

Impossible

Fantasy story

**CANT believe i actually clicked the hide post button to see what you said**

But, it is possible, and with the 3 different brand converters, and several different converters from those 3 companies each and every converter company said same thing, that the converter needed to be looser to allow the engine to get where it needed to run. You have to rememeber, it doesnt matter what them dynos say, if the engine cant accelerate it wont run right down the track. The particular engine i am talking about built awesome power on the dyno, but it didnt want to pull rpm on the dyno either. We went from a "B" pump and 41 degree stator to a B pump and a 35 degree stator which shouldnt have raised stall more than 200-300 rpm, but instead it picked up 700 rpm and was .1 faster and 4 mph. As a trans/converter guy, i can make your 30k engine look bad, and i can make your garage built engine look like a hero more than people realize.

If you have an engine that makes 710hp with an obeserved stall of 6200 and you take that converter and put it behind an engine that makes 840hp, the new stall is easily predicted beforehand. The new observed stall, will be the old observed stall divided by the square root of torque of the new engine.

You are what you do, not what you say you do. If you don't know the fundamental principles, you can say you're a trans & converter guy all day long, but you're not.

The converter is the dyno.

Lower observed stall is lower engine output period.

Higher observed stall is higher engine output period.

RPM = K x v/torque -

This is not a subjective matter.

Absolutely insane take. The RPM at which the peak number was measured is a very important piece of the equation.

A 900 horse bracket BBC is not going to stall the same converter at the same RPM as a 900 horse Super Stock or Comp SBC.

We're talking changing heads on a sbc.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Rietow:
Nobody here said anything about a Super Stocker or Comp car, that's putting words in my mouth.

But since it was introduced, lets use it for easy understanding.

If you put a set of heads on a Super Stocker that made 50hp more, same converter.

Is it possible for the converter to stall lower?

No

Here's what I did say, and it's fact.

The converter is the dyno.

Lower observed stall is lower engine output period.

Higher observed stall is higher engine output period.

RPM = K x v/torque -

This is not a subjective matter.

quote:

Originally posted by Lenny5160:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Rietow:
Nobody here said anything about a Super Stocker or Comp car, that's putting words in my mouth.

But since it was introduced, lets use it for easy understanding.

If you put a set of heads on a Super Stocker that made 50hp more, same converter.

Is it possible for the converter to stall lower?

No

Here's what I did say, and it's fact.

The converter is the dyno.

Lower observed stall is lower engine output period.

Higher observed stall is higher engine output period.

RPM = K x v/torque -

This is not a subjective matter.

The bold period are where you are wrong.

A higher HP engine can absolutely make less HP at the RPM at which a given converter stalls, but make a lot more HP at a higher RPM.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Rietow:

quote:

Originally posted by Lenny5160:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Rietow:
Nobody here said anything about a Super Stocker or Comp car, that's putting words in my mouth.

But since it was introduced, lets use it for easy understanding.

If you put a set of heads on a Super Stocker that made 50hp more, same converter.

Is it possible for the converter to stall lower?

No

Here's what I did say, and it's fact.

The converter is the dyno.

Lower observed stall is lower engine output period.

Higher observed stall is higher engine output period.

RPM = K x v/torque -

This is not a subjective matter.

The bold period are where you are wrong.

A higher HP engine can absolutely make less HP at the RPM at which a given converter stalls, but make a lot more HP at a higher RPM.

But it can't make less torque.

*Torque* converter

TORQUE = HP x 5252 ÷ RPM

This is why I own the fastest out of the box 23 degree cylinder head, 3200 lb car on the planet, 10 x 28 tire.

quote:

Originally posted by Lenny5160:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Rietow:

quote:

Originally posted by Lenny5160:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Rietow:
Nobody here said anything about a Super Stocker or Comp car, that's putting words in my mouth.

But since it was introduced, lets use it for easy understanding.

If you put a set of heads on a Super Stocker that made 50hp more, same converter.

Is it possible for the converter to stall lower?

No

Here's what I did say, and it's fact.

The converter is the dyno.

Lower observed stall is lower engine output period.

Higher observed stall is higher engine output period.

RPM = K x v/torque -

This is not a subjective matter.

The bold period are where you are wrong.

A higher HP engine can absolutely make less HP at the RPM at which a given converter stalls, but make a lot more HP at a higher RPM.

But it can't make less torque.

*Torque* converter

TORQUE = HP x 5252 ÷ RPM

This is why I own the fastest out of the box 23 degree cylinder head, 3200 lb car on the planet, 10 x 28 tire.

At peak HP RPM, you are correct. But at 5300 RPM or wherever the converter stall was with the lower HP engine, sure it can. The curve can move.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Rietow:

quote:

Originally posted by Lenny5160:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Rietow:

quote:

Originally posted by Lenny5160:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Rietow:
Nobody here said anything about a Super Stocker or Comp car, that's putting words in my mouth.

But since it was introduced, lets use it for easy understanding.

If you put a set of heads on a Super Stocker that made 50hp more, same converter.

Is it possible for the converter to stall lower?

No

Here's what I did say, and it's fact.

The converter is the dyno.

Lower observed stall is lower engine output period.

Higher observed stall is higher engine output period.

RPM = K x v/torque -

This is not a subjective matter.

The bold period are where you are wrong.

A higher HP engine can absolutely make less HP at the RPM at which a given converter stalls, but make a lot more HP at a higher RPM.

But it can't make less torque.

*Torque* converter

TORQUE = HP x 5252 ÷ RPM

This is why I own the fastest out of the box 23 degree cylinder head, 3200 lb car on the planet, 10 x 28 tire.

At peak HP RPM, you are correct. But at 5300 RPM or wherever the converter stall was with the lower HP engine, sure it can. The curve can move.

We're digressing here.


Here's what I did say, and it's fact.

The converter is the dyno.

Lower observed stall is lower engine output period.

Higher observed stall is higher engine output period.

RPM = K x v/torque -

This is not a subjective matter.

What do you disagree with?

If you put a set of cylinder heads on a Super Stocker that made 50hp more, and another set that made 150hp more, same converter.

Is it possible the stall is higher with the heads making 50hp more?

If your answer is no, you're on the side of fact.

You also agree with what I did say.

Not so insane is it now?

quote:

Originally posted by Lenny5160:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Rietow:

quote:

Originally posted by Lenny5160:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Rietow:

quote:

Originally posted by Lenny5160:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Rietow:
Nobody here said anything about a Super Stocker or Comp car, that's putting words in my mouth.

But since it was introduced, lets use it for easy understanding.

If you put a set of heads on a Super Stocker that made 50hp more, same converter.

Is it possible for the converter to stall lower?

No

Here's what I did say, and it's fact.

The converter is the dyno.

Lower observed stall is lower engine output period.

Higher observed stall is higher engine output period.

RPM = K x v/torque -

This is not a subjective matter.

The bold period are where you are wrong.

A higher HP engine can absolutely make less HP at the RPM at which a given converter stalls, but make a lot more HP at a higher RPM.

But it can't make less torque.

*Torque* converter

TORQUE = HP x 5252 ÷ RPM

This is why I own the fastest out of the box 23 degree cylinder head, 3200 lb car on the planet, 10 x 28 tire.

At peak HP RPM, you are correct. But at 5300 RPM or wherever the converter stall was with the lower HP engine, sure it can. The curve can move.

We're digressing here.


Here's what I did say, and it's fact.

The converter is the dyno.

Lower observed stall is lower engine output period.

Higher observed stall is higher engine output period.

RPM = K x v/torque -

This is not a subjective matter.

What do you disagree with?

If you put a set of cylinder heads on a Super Stocker that made 50hp more, and another set that made 150hp more, same converter.

Is it possible the stall is higher with the heads making 50hp more?

If your answer is no, you're on the side of fact.

You also agree with what I did say.

Not so insane is it now?

I think most reasonable people would agree that you’re an idiot.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Rietow:
That's ok, people who know torque converters think you're an idiot,... now.

quote:

Originally posted by Lenny5160:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Rietow:
That's ok, reasonable people who know torque converters, know you're an idiot,... now.

In the post at the top of this page you were clearly talking about putting the same converter behind two different engines, and being able to calculate the stall knowing only the peak HP.

That is wrong.

Then you had to pivot to adding terms and conditions such as “we’re talking about only swapping heads on a SBC.” You’re at least getting warmer.

quote:

Originally posted by 329L:


Something else to think about. Sometimes you have to build a higher stall converter to utilize a combonation. I had a customer that had a 421 sbc with 23 degree heads that ran 5.90s. Converter would go 6200 and the engine made 710 hp. Put a set of 13 degree heads on same short block, engine made 840. We used same converter and it only stalled 5800 and only ran .05 faster than 23 degree engine. We built a new converter with less pump, and more stator, and the converter stalled 6700, and car picked up to mid 5.70s. Sometimes, a converter has to be changed to get the engine happy so that it will run.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Rietow:

quote:

Originally posted by Lenny5160:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Rietow:
That's ok, reasonable people who know torque converters, know you're an idiot,... now.

In the post at the top of this page you were clearly talking about putting the same converter behind two different engines, and being able to calculate the stall knowing only the peak HP.

That is wrong.

Then you had to pivot to adding terms and conditions such as “we’re talking about only swapping heads on a SBC.” You’re at least getting warmer.

quote:

Originally posted by 329L:


Something else to think about. Sometimes you have to build a higher stall converter to utilize a combonation. I had a customer that had a 421 sbc with 23 degree heads that ran 5.90s. Converter would go 6200 and the engine made 710 hp. Put a set of 13 degree heads on same short block, engine made 840. We used same converter and it only stalled 5800 and only ran .05 faster than 23 degree engine. We built a new converter with less pump, and more stator, and the converter stalled 6700, and car picked up to mid 5.70s. Sometimes, a converter has to be changed to get the engine happy so that it will run.

At the top of the page I'm talking about this post, as I have been the entire thread.

Which BTW, is a post of how only cylinder heads were changed on a sbc. There has been no pivot.

This post is a fantasy story.

It's Impossible.

It's impossible to bolt cylinder heads on a sbc or a Super Stocker, gain 50hp or a 150hp horsepower and lose observed stall, same converter.

It's impossible.

Try to keep up would ya Leonard?

quote:

Originally posted by 329L:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Rietow:

quote:

Originally posted by Lenny5160:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Rietow:
That's ok, reasonable people who know torque converters, know you're an idiot,... now.

In the post at the top of this page you were clearly talking about putting the same converter behind two different engines, and being able to calculate the stall knowing only the peak HP.

That is wrong.

Then you had to pivot to adding terms and conditions such as “we’re talking about only swapping heads on a SBC.” You’re at least getting warmer.

quote:

Originally posted by 329L:


Something else to think about. Sometimes you have to build a higher stall converter to utilize a combonation. I had a customer that had a 421 sbc with 23 degree heads that ran 5.90s. Converter would go 6200 and the engine made 710 hp. Put a set of 13 degree heads on same short block, engine made 840. We used same converter and it only stalled 5800 and only ran .05 faster than 23 degree engine. We built a new converter with less pump, and more stator, and the converter stalled 6700, and car picked up to mid 5.70s. Sometimes, a converter has to be changed to get the engine happy so that it will run.

At the top of the page I'm talking about this post, as I have been the entire thread.

Which BTW, is a post of how only cylinder heads were changed on a sbc. There has been no pivot.

This post is a fantasy story.

It's Impossible.

It's impossible to bolt cylinder heads on a sbc or a Super Stocker, gain 50hp or a 150hp horsepower and lose observed stall, same converter.

It's impossible.

Try to keep up would ya Leonard?

But it is possible, because it ACTUALLY happened. You know, just like you smoked them cones.

quote:

Originally posted by Goob:
Well this has turned into a puzzler....

Bowtie Phase 6 heads to AFR 220 race ready heads.....drum roll please....

NO DIFFERENCE, not ET, not MPH, nothing.

So to recap....changed rear gears, changed torque converter, changed shift point, it picked up .1, changed cylinder heads, nothing.

I've swung timing, played with the carburetor a touch on the original heads.

I'm considering parking it in a mudhole. Maybe I'm just expecting too much?
Anyone want to play with their Desktop Dyno?

4.030" x 3.75" 6" rod internal balance, .016" deck, 12.5cc dome, .570"/.590" 266/274 106 LSA 7/4 swap Comp cam with 1.6 rockers, 60cc bowtie / 65cc AFR, 3.2cc head gasket / 8.9cc gasket, 850 carb on a Team G intake.