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Distributorless Ignition Question
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DRR S/Pro
Picture of David Covey
posted
Looking to go to individual coils. No real reason other than something different and the idea of better/hotter spark.
Looking at MSD 60153MSD but in reading it only offers 2 rpm controls, launch and max rpm. Other than that it has most of what a grid does.

Question, will it connect to the grid controller? I could not find anything about that.

Dave


"It is usually futile to try to talk facts and analysis to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance." -Thomas Sowell
 
Posts: 3304 | Location: American By Birth Texan By The Grace Of God  | Registered: April 29, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
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Dave, I recently installed a Daytona Sensors CD1 controller. I had a programming question so I called the tech support number.

The call and the help were top shelf, the person I spoke with was completely up to speed with the product. He guided me and we were finished in just a few minutes.

Moving forward, I plan to install the LS coil on plug system on my Colorado buildup.

I highly recommend Dayton Sensors Company.


Larry Woodfin



 
Posts: 1828 | Location: Kilgore TX | Registered: March 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
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Grid 7730 is not used with 6015. 6015 is DIS (Direct Ignition System). Open the 6015 sample mff file in MSDView4 to see what programming is offered.

For CNP you need a cam reference so 6015 knows when to fire the correct coil. Might take 2 engine revolutions or more for this to happen depending on how their system is set up. It appears they are using Digital Falling for both signals.

Here’s a photo of what the distributor included with the kit “could possibly” look like triggering the 6015. This is a MSD 2376 Pro-Billet EFI Dual Sync Distributor triggering a Holley HP EFI in a sbc.

The ratcheting of the rpm signal is very common using a distributor trigger. Some are worse than others. You won’t see this using a crank trigger.

The 6015 can be made to work with a crank trigger (Holley 554-118) to give you a cleaner rpm input if desired. The cam sync signal from the MSD 2376 would still be needed.

 
Posts: 2448 | Location: 53056 | Registered: December 30, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
Picture of David Covey
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Larry Woodfin:
Dave, I recently installed a Daytona Sensors CD1 controller. I had a programming question so I called the tech support number.

The call and the help were top shelf, the person I spoke with was completely up to speed with the product. He guided me and we were finished in just a few minutes.

Moving forward, I plan to install the LS coil on plug system on my Colorado buildup.

I highly recommend Dayton Sensors Company.


Thanks Larry I'll check it out.

Dave


"It is usually futile to try to talk facts and analysis to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance." -Thomas Sowell
 
Posts: 3304 | Location: American By Birth Texan By The Grace Of God  | Registered: April 29, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
Picture of David Covey
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quote:
Originally posted by markemark:
Grid 7730 is not used with 6015. 6015 is DIS (Direct Ignition System). Open the 6015 sample mff file in MSDView4 to see what programming is offered.

For CNP you need a cam reference so 6015 knows when to fire the correct coil. Might take 2 engine revolutions or more for this to happen depending on how their system is set up. It appears they are using Digital Falling for both signals.

Here’s a photo of what the distributor included with the kit “could possibly” look like triggering the 6015. This is a MSD 2376 Pro-Billet EFI Dual Sync Distributor triggering a Holley HP EFI in a sbc.

The ratcheting of the rpm signal is very common using a distributor trigger. Some are worse than others. You won’t see this using a crank trigger.

The 6015 can be made to work with a crank trigger (Holley 554-118) to give you a cleaner rpm input if desired. The cam sync signal from the MSD 2376 would still be needed.



Mark, I will be using MSD 85231 cam sync distributor.
I looked at the 6015 file and that is when I discovered it only has two rpm controls, launch and Max. I use a burnout rpm limiter and was wondering if I would have to use my grid to make that happen.
I originally went with the Digital ignition to get away from the clutter of all the different "boxes" and went with the grid for the extra ignition power. I'm looking at the 6015 for the extra power, it offers everything I need other than the burnout limiter.

Dave

This message has been edited. Last edited by: David Covey,


"It is usually futile to try to talk facts and analysis to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance." -Thomas Sowell
 
Posts: 3304 | Location: American By Birth Texan By The Grace Of God  | Registered: April 29, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
Picture of David Covey
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Larry,

Unless I'm missing something, and I very well could be. The Daytona system is for LS engines? It calls for a 24 or 58 tooth crank trigger. Their CD1 is a single coil application.
I'm wanting to do a coil near plug distributor less system.

Dave


"It is usually futile to try to talk facts and analysis to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance." -Thomas Sowell
 
Posts: 3304 | Location: American By Birth Texan By The Grace Of God  | Registered: April 29, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
Picture of Lenny5160
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You don’t think you could manage to get by without a burnout limiter?


Tony Leonard
 
Posts: 3151 | Location: Inver Grove Heights, MN | Registered: March 18, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post



DRR S/Pro
Picture of David Covey
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quote:
Originally posted by Lenny5160:
You don’t think you could manage to get by without a burnout limiter?


Tony,
LOL.. Probably could, but it helps me.

Years ago before 3 steps, I dropped a valve in the burnout box. Which took me a minute to figure out why. Then realized I was not watching my revs. When the 3 step came out I was probably the first in line to get one and have used it since..
With this blower motor it revs so fast and it is hard to catch it.
Alky and fuel guys have a limiter on their throttle cables to help with this, but I race alone most times so I can't use the same thing.?

Dave


"It is usually futile to try to talk facts and analysis to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance." -Thomas Sowell
 
Posts: 3304 | Location: American By Birth Texan By The Grace Of God  | Registered: April 29, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
Picture of Lenny5160
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Fair enough.

I can’t say that I’ve never used a burnout limiter, but I don’t anymore. Never driven a blown car so I don’t know what I might be missing.


Tony Leonard
 
Posts: 3151 | Location: Inver Grove Heights, MN | Registered: March 18, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Elite
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I'll just throw this out there in case you have these future thoughts. If you think you will ever go efi, buy it now. You don't have to do a thing with your fuel system, but you can run the ignition with it now, and learn the system and get familiar with it now. Plus, you could drop your data collection since most efi does that as well. Just a thought in case you had any thoughts of doing that going forward.


Foxtrot Juliet Bravo
 
Posts: 6381 | Location: Illinois | Registered: July 08, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
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I’m running a Haltech vms. Was about to throw it in the trash can over some stupid problems, but now that it works, I kinda like it. Good data recording capability. Can run launch retard curves, multiple rev limiters, step retards, etc

I’m using stock Ls coils. Still chasing a lack of power but pretty sure it’s a blower problem and not ignition related. IGN1As are a safer bet for a little more money.

You could run a Daytona LS system by bolting a 58x wheel on your balancer if they don’t have options for other trigger types. The Haltech will use any trigger type ever made, except it doesn’t like the 24x gm wheel. I have a 4 magnet MSD on mine but a 12x might have been better.
 
Posts: 928 | Location: my own little world | Registered: July 20, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
Picture of David Covey
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quote:
Originally posted by Lenny5160:
Fair enough.

I can’t say that I’ve never used a burnout limiter, but I don’t anymore. Never driven a blown car so I don’t know what I might be missing.


You are missing a hell of a ride...lol Big Grin

Dave


"It is usually futile to try to talk facts and analysis to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance." -Thomas Sowell
 
Posts: 3304 | Location: American By Birth Texan By The Grace Of God  | Registered: April 29, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
Picture of David Covey
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quote:
Originally posted by Bucky:
I'll just throw this out there in case you have these future thoughts. If you think you will ever go efi, buy it now. You don't have to do a thing with your fuel system, but you can run the ignition with it now, and learn the system and get familiar with it now. Plus, you could drop your data collection since most efi does that as well. Just a thought in case you had any thoughts of doing that going forward.


Exactly what my buddy Joe (sr4440) said.
I know I could eventually learn the EFI, but I already know my MFI system and like it.

Dave


"It is usually futile to try to talk facts and analysis to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance." -Thomas Sowell
 
Posts: 3304 | Location: American By Birth Texan By The Grace Of God  | Registered: April 29, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
Picture of David Covey
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quote:
Originally posted by BJs Wild Ride:
I’m running a Haltech vms. Was about to throw it in the trash can over some stupid problems, but now that it works, I kinda like it. Good data recording capability. Can run launch retard curves, multiple rev limiters, step retards, etc

I’m using stock Ls coils. Still chasing a lack of power but pretty sure it’s a blower problem and not ignition related. IGN1As are a safer bet for a little more money.

You could run a Daytona LS system by bolting a 58x wheel on your balancer if they don’t have options for other trigger types. The Haltech will use any trigger type ever made, except it doesn’t like the 24x gm wheel. I have a 4 magnet MSD on mine but a 12x might have been better.


I'll check out the Haltech system.

Dave


"It is usually futile to try to talk facts and analysis to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance." -Thomas Sowell
 
Posts: 3304 | Location: American By Birth Texan By The Grace Of God  | Registered: April 29, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post



DRR S/Pro
Picture of David Covey
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Just looked at the Haltech unit. Nice unit. Brought up another question which would apply to any ECU that is also for EFI and does data logging.
I agree I could get rid of my RPM logger which could be applied to the final cost of the system, a plus. But the question is could I still connect to my RPM dash? How would that be accomplished?

I will send randy @RPM that question and also send it to Haltech and see if there is an answer.

I think the answer will be no bueno.

Dave


"It is usually futile to try to talk facts and analysis to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance." -Thomas Sowell
 
Posts: 3304 | Location: American By Birth Texan By The Grace Of God  | Registered: April 29, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Elite
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quote:
I have a 4 magnet MSD on mine but a 12x might have been better.


I have had discussions about this with others. I have a 62-2 wheel. I was convinced some of my lost sync issues was the wheel, so I used my 4 magnet for a while. Some say that accuracy suffers with that few of magnets. But then, I used that wheel for 15 years prior to that and it worked well.

Haltechs seem nice. The higher Holley models have a lot of popularity and a lot of support groups. I'm using a Megasquirt, which is rooted in DIY, but migrating towards plug and play now.

There is something to be said for starting off with ignition only and getting that all figured out, and maybe going efi later. Or not. I big methanol fuel user means an expensive pump (although yours may actually work) and big injectors...or multiples.

The nice thing about using the efi for ignition is that all the features for curves etc can be used and tables as well.


Foxtrot Juliet Bravo
 
Posts: 6381 | Location: Illinois | Registered: July 08, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Elite
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quote:
Originally posted by David Covey:
Just looked at the Haltech unit. Nice unit. Brought up another question which would apply to any ECU that is also for EFI and does data logging.
I agree I could get rid of my RPM logger which could be applied to the final cost of the system, a plus. But the question is could I still connect to my RPM dash? How would that be accomplished?

I will send randy @RPM that question and also send it to Haltech and see if there is an answer.

I think the answer will be no bueno.

Dave


If the RPM has a canbus connection, well maybe. Or sell the dash and do something different.

We just put together a PiDash for my son's MS3 LS dragster. I have less than $200 in the dash. It is a bit of a techy project though. This made the interface easy since the Pi is basically a PC in a very small package.


Foxtrot Juliet Bravo
 
Posts: 6381 | Location: Illinois | Registered: July 08, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
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quote:
Originally posted by BJs Wild Ride:
I have a 4 magnet MSD on mine but a 12x might have been better.


ATI 11-1 on mine, had ati make it and just changed the shell instead of the complete balancer


J.R. Baxter

""Fathom the hypocrisy of a Government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured ..but not everyone must prove they are a citizen."

2024 Miller
Rolla Competition Engines
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Abruzzi
 
Posts: 1515 | Location: Waxahachie | Registered: July 04, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
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My opinion, anything more than 12-1 gives you too small of a window for the cam sensor.

However, with the Haltech you HAVE to run it sync until synced. They have a bug in the firmware if you run sync always (they call it a feature). If you’re set to sync always and it misses the cam trigger and doesn’t recover it within a couple revs it will randomly fire all 8 coils once or twice. On a hemi or maybe a bbc it might be less catastrophic, and it’s probably low likelihood that it will randomly fire at just the wrong time, but I destroyed a set of good factory LS heads to learn this lesson.
 
Posts: 928 | Location: my own little world | Registered: July 20, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
Picture of David Covey
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Man.. Wish I was as techie as you guy's..

I contacted Haltech and asked about using my dash and here is their response:
quote:
The question is more of if the RPM dash can read the Haltech protocol.
The Elite series of ECU does send out CAN data for a dash to read and display, but that means their dash needs to be able to read out data.
I can provide you with that data below, but it is up to the dash to be able to interpret it so it can display it.

I attached the Haltech CAN protocol below for you, this is the data the dash needs to be able to read so it can work.
If there is anything else I can help with please let me know!


All I know is the RPM unit has a cable that runs from the logger to the dash.
I'm waiting on randy at RPM to get back to me.

Question for all you guy's. Sounds like you are running different pick up wheels If I run the MSD 85231 dual sync distributor I should not need to run any 4, 11, or what ever wheel. Correct?
Although I think markemark has a point about the smoothness of running a wheel. I know running a crank trigger maks a big difference in the timing jumping around.

as to running alcohol. If I ever switch to EFI I will do mechanical in the hat and EFI in the ports. But even then I'm thinking electric pump for the EFI only because at low rpm the mechanical pump doesn't make the required pressure.

Dave

DC: Now I've added more questions..lol


"It is usually futile to try to talk facts and analysis to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance." -Thomas Sowell
 
Posts: 3304 | Location: American By Birth Texan By The Grace Of God  | Registered: April 29, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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