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Distributorless Ignition Question
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DRR S/Pro
Picture of David Covey
posted Hide Post
Got an answer from RPM..

quote:
Sorry Dave, you will need their dash for their computers.



Dave


"It is usually futile to try to talk facts and analysis to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance." -Thomas Sowell
 
Posts: 3309 | Location: American By Birth Texan By The Grace Of God  | Registered: April 29, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by David Covey:
Man.. Wish I was as techie as you guy's..

I contacted Haltech and asked about using my dash and here is their response:
quote:
The question is more of if the RPM dash can read the Haltech protocol.
The Elite series of ECU does send out CAN data for a dash to read and display, but that means their dash needs to be able to read out data.
I can provide you with that data below, but it is up to the dash to be able to interpret it so it can display it.

I attached the Haltech CAN protocol below for you, this is the data the dash needs to be able to read so it can work.
If there is anything else I can help with please let me know!


All I know is the RPM unit has a cable that runs from the logger to the dash.
I'm waiting on randy at RPM to get back to me.

Question for all you guy's. Sounds like you are running different pick up wheels If I run the MSD 85231 dual sync distributor I should not need to run any 4, 11, or what ever wheel. Correct?
Although I think markemark has a point about the smoothness of running a wheel. I know running a crank trigger maks a big difference in the timing jumping around.

as to running alcohol. If I ever switch to EFI I will do mechanical in the hat and EFI in the ports. But even then I'm thinking electric pump for the EFI only because at low rpm the mechanical pump doesn't make the required pressure.

Dave

DC: Now I've added more questions..lol


Definitely a mechanical pump.,Boost ref regulator…your pump won’t work likely, unless you have a 20 Gpm pump now maybe


J.R. Baxter

""Fathom the hypocrisy of a Government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured ..but not everyone must prove they are a citizen."

2024 Miller
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Abruzzi
 
Posts: 1525 | Location: Waxahachie | Registered: July 04, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
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Running a coil near plug ignition off of a distributor trigger kinda makes me think of those pictures you see on the internet of guys pulling a gooseneck off of a bumper hitch…
 
Posts: 931 | Location: my own little world | Registered: July 20, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
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quote:
Originally posted by David Covey:Question for all you guy's. Sounds like you are running different pick up wheels If I run the MSD 85231 dual sync distributor I should not need to run any 4, 11, or what ever wheel. Correct?


This is only cam sync and no cylinder firing pulses.
 
Posts: 2483 | Location: 53056 | Registered: December 30, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
Picture of David Covey
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by seabass:
quote:
Originally posted by David Covey:
Man.. Wish I was as techie as you guy's..

I contacted Haltech and asked about using my dash and here is their response:
quote:
The question is more of if the RPM dash can read the Haltech protocol.
The Elite series of ECU does send out CAN data for a dash to read and display, but that means their dash needs to be able to read out data.
I can provide you with that data below, but it is up to the dash to be able to interpret it so it can display it.

I attached the Haltech CAN protocol below for you, this is the data the dash needs to be able to read so it can work.
If there is anything else I can help with please let me know!


All I know is the RPM unit has a cable that runs from the logger to the dash.
I'm waiting on randy at RPM to get back to me.

Question for all you guy's. Sounds like you are running different pick up wheels If I run the MSD 85231 dual sync distributor I should not need to run any 4, 11, or what ever wheel. Correct?
Although I think markemark has a point about the smoothness of running a wheel. I know running a crank trigger maks a big difference in the timing jumping around.

as to running alcohol. If I ever switch to EFI I will do mechanical in the hat and EFI in the ports. But even then I'm thinking electric pump for the EFI only because at low rpm the mechanical pump doesn't make the required pressure.

Dave

DC: Now I've added more questions..lol


Definitely a mechanical pump.,Boost ref regulator…your pump won’t work likely, unless you have a 20 Gpm pump now maybe


Thanks J.R.

Dave


"It is usually futile to try to talk facts and analysis to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance." -Thomas Sowell
 
Posts: 3309 | Location: American By Birth Texan By The Grace Of God  | Registered: April 29, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
Picture of David Covey
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by BJs Wild Ride:
Running a coil near plug ignition off of a distributor trigger kinda makes me think of those pictures you see on the internet of guys pulling a gooseneck off of a bumper hitch…


I worked the Funny Car Chaos at Alamo Raceway 2 weeks ago. out of close to 40 Alcohol Blown Funny cars and Blown Altered maybe 30% had the MSD 85231 distributor-less trigger. All of them had pretty nice haulers too..lol


"It is usually futile to try to talk facts and analysis to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance." -Thomas Sowell
 
Posts: 3309 | Location: American By Birth Texan By The Grace Of God  | Registered: April 29, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
Picture of David Covey
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by markemark:
quote:
Originally posted by David Covey:Question for all you guy's. Sounds like you are running different pick up wheels If I run the MSD 85231 dual sync distributor I should not need to run any 4, 11, or what ever wheel. Correct?


This is only cam sync and no cylinder firing pulses.


I understood it to be dual sync. So back to the drawing board.

Dave


"It is usually futile to try to talk facts and analysis to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance." -Thomas Sowell
 
Posts: 3309 | Location: American By Birth Texan By The Grace Of God  | Registered: April 29, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post



DRR S/Pro
Picture of David Covey
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OK, I am obviously missing something.

I was under the impression I could eliminate my current ignition system, then go to coil near plug using the MSD 85231 dist, 60153msd ignition box, and 558-312 wiring harness. This does not include the coils and plug wires.

So, after admitting my ignorance other than going full out EFI controller what do I need to make this work?

Mark, you suggested using the Holley 554-118 to trigger the ignition, correct? But the MSD 2376 is a Chevy dual sync dist. I run a mopar, so that would be replaced by the part number above.

If I understand you correctly I would use the Holley part #554-118 to trigger the ignition off of the crank instead of the cam sync of the MSD 85231?
If I understand correctly the cam sync is only used to trigger the injectors on EFI.. Right?

Trying to figure this out.

As to the Funny cars using the above dist. I didn't notice any other triggers like on the crank.

Dave


"It is usually futile to try to talk facts and analysis to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance." -Thomas Sowell
 
Posts: 3309 | Location: American By Birth Texan By The Grace Of God  | Registered: April 29, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
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Posts: 2483 | Location: 53056 | Registered: December 30, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
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quote:
Originally posted by David Covey:If I understand correctly the cam sync is only used to trigger the injectors on EFI.. Right?


You are trying to sequence CNP that requires an orientation (cam sync) for proper coil firing, same as EFI.

Here’s the other thing about this orientation. Unlike a distributor trigger with one coil that fires immediately, CNP will require several rotations of the engine before it will start the coil firing.
 
Posts: 2483 | Location: 53056 | Registered: December 30, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
Picture of David Covey
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by markemark:
quote:
Originally posted by David Covey:If I understand correctly the cam sync is only used to trigger the injectors on EFI.. Right?


You are trying to sequence CNP that requires an orientation (cam sync) for proper coil firing, same as EFI.

Here’s the other thing about this orientation. Unlike a distributor trigger with one coil that fires immediately, CNP will require several rotations of the engine before it will start the coil firing.


OK got it (I think)..

Sounds like my engine will not start like it used to. Normally mine would fire before making a complete revolution..

Still haven't figured out how the FC seemed to only be using the distributor that was cam sync only.

Dave

Dave


"It is usually futile to try to talk facts and analysis to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance." -Thomas Sowell
 
Posts: 3309 | Location: American By Birth Texan By The Grace Of God  | Registered: April 29, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by David Covey:Still haven't figured out how the FC seemed to only be using the distributor that was cam sync only.


Is it possible they had the magnets in the balancer with a pickup.
 
Posts: 2483 | Location: 53056 | Registered: December 30, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
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quote:
Originally posted by David Covey:Sounds like my engine will not start like it used to. Normally mine would fire before making a complete revolution..


When I installed Holley HP EFI with MFI, I was also using my primer plus plate on pump gas. My PP system did not like the Holley EFI orientation prior to firing the coil (single) and would back fire while cranking to start. Switching back to Grid controlling the ignition returned this to normal starting. No orientation needed.

When I made the transition from MFI to EFI with an intake manifold change mid year, I had enough experience (Thanks Rick!) with the system prior that the learning curve was very short and much worked well immediately. Grid still controls the ignition in EFI and still using the PP system with it.
 
Posts: 2483 | Location: 53056 | Registered: December 30, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
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You can use the dual sync distributor, it just seems a little redneck. If it’s working for the funny cars then who am I to judge.

My Haltech setup fires on about the second revolution. I always crank then ignition anyway so can’t really tell the difference from when I had a distributor.
 
Posts: 931 | Location: my own little world | Registered: July 20, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post



DRR Sportsman
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by markemark:
quote:
Originally posted by David Covey:Still haven't figured out how the FC seemed to only be using the distributor that was cam sync only.


Is it possible they had the magnets in the balancer with a pickup.


No reason you can’t fire a Holley or Haltech Coil Near Plug setup with just the dual sync. I probably wouldn’t on a Chevy but I suppose a Chrysler makes a little more sense.
 
Posts: 931 | Location: my own little world | Registered: July 20, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
Picture of David Covey
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by markemark:


Is it possible they had the magnets in the balancer with a pickup.


Entirely possible.
Question. Does the dual sync distributor use two hall effect sensors? If so, could I use the hall effect sensor you posted on my MSD crank trigger and the cam sync distributor I posted?

Dave


"It is usually futile to try to talk facts and analysis to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance." -Thomas Sowell
 
Posts: 3309 | Location: American By Birth Texan By The Grace Of God  | Registered: April 29, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
Picture of David Covey
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by BJs Wild Ride:
You can use the dual sync distributor, it just seems a little redneck. If it’s working for the funny cars then who am I to judge.

My Haltech setup fires on about the second revolution. I always crank then ignition anyway so can’t really tell the difference from when I had a distributor.


BJ,

The funny cars did not use a dual sync distributor. They were using the cam sync distributor that I listed.
As Mark has suggested they must have had a crank trigger of sorts also mounted. Although I did not see it.
Reason I noticed the distributor was because they did not have a cap that could use plug wires. That and the coils were mounted to the frame rails.

Dave


"It is usually futile to try to talk facts and analysis to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance." -Thomas Sowell
 
Posts: 3309 | Location: American By Birth Texan By The Grace Of God  | Registered: April 29, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
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Gotcha.

It’s also possible to use a standard pickup in the distributor for the crank sensor and then use the rotor as a cam sensor. I think Ive seen a kit for sale somewhere but it’s a lso possible to fab your own.

Looks like there might be A third option that I’ve never heard of before is to use a missing tooth cam trigger as your only trigger. I’m not sure if Haltech can handle this but apparently mega squirt can so others must be able to as well.

https://www.stinger-performanc...ensor-conversion-tfi
 
Posts: 931 | Location: my own little world | Registered: July 20, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
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quote:
Originally posted by David Covey:
Does the dual sync distributor use two hall effect sensors? If so, could I use the hall effect sensor you posted on my MSD crank trigger and the cam sync distributor I posted?


Yes, the Dual Sync Distributor is two Hall Effect Digital Falling sensors.

I think using the Holley 554-118 Hall Effect Crankshaft Signal Sensor with your present flying magnet wheel to be a wise choice. Then the Cam Sync would come from the MSD 85231 that you selected.

The MSD 6015 uses a 10 pin interface connector for the Dual Sync distributor direct plug in. Both the Holley 554-118 and MSD 85231 use a 3 pin connector. You need to make a interface cable with the three proper connectors to make this work.

I suggest contacting Glenn Payne at https://madracingparts.com/ explaining what you are doing and he can provide the correct plug ends, pins and wire for a DIY cable, or he can make it for you if you know the wire length dimensions although it’ll be more expensive.

I use both a Dual Sync distributor and a Holley 554-118 crank sensor. I drew the wiring diagram and had Glenn wire the interface cable to make this work. What I am now able to do is run the Distributor Cam and Crank trigger together. In the event of a crank trigger failure, I simply unplug the interface cable and plug the distributor cable into the Holley 10 pin and am now using both signals from the distributor.

 
Posts: 2483 | Location: 53056 | Registered: December 30, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
Picture of David Covey
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Thanks to both BJ and Mark. I think I naow know what to do.
At first I thought what I originally posted was plug and play.
I'll go with both the dist I posted and the MSD trigger.

Thanks guys

Dave


"It is usually futile to try to talk facts and analysis to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance." -Thomas Sowell
 
Posts: 3309 | Location: American By Birth Texan By The Grace Of God  | Registered: April 29, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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