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Originally posted by Coloradoracer:

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Originally posted by Ron C.:
Don't forget to factor in elevation, the higher the elevation,...the lower the boiling point of water. Example.....5280'......boils at 203 degrees.

This has zero effect on a cooling system as it is a closed system and not subject to the effects of altitude. That only becomes an issue on unpressurized systems or open containers of water.

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Originally posted by Ron C.:

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Originally posted by Coloradoracer:

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Originally posted by Ron C.:
Don't forget to factor in elevation, the higher the elevation,...the lower the boiling point of water. Example.....5280'......boils at 203 degrees.

This has zero effect on a cooling system as it is a closed system and not subject to the effects of altitude. That only becomes an issue on unpressurized systems or open containers of water.

.......If you run a radiator recovery system it applies.

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Originally posted by 1leg:
Any car with a radaitor should be using a recovery style system. It is the only way to properly manage the air in the coolant system. There might be some exception like a car that uses an chiller between rounds, but a super class or bracket car should. It will also make it easier to check your coolant level without removing the radiator cap all the time.

Most cars should use a 16lbs cap. Exceptions would be heavly ported cylinder heads or copper head gaskets.

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Originally posted by WHOMPWHOMP:

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Originally posted by 1leg:
Any car with a radaitor should be using a recovery style system. It is the only way to properly manage the air in the coolant system. There might be some exception like a car that uses an chiller between rounds, but a super class or bracket car should. It will also make it easier to check your coolant level without removing the radiator cap all the time.

Most cars should use a 16lbs cap. Exceptions would be heavly ported cylinder heads or copper head gaskets.

So who makes the tank with tube running down it.......

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Originally posted by Coloradoracer:

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Originally posted by Ron C.:

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Originally posted by Coloradoracer:

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Originally posted by Ron C.:
Don't forget to factor in elevation, the higher the elevation,...the lower the boiling point of water. Example.....5280'......boils at 203 degrees.

This has zero effect on a cooling system as it is a closed system and not subject to the effects of altitude. That only becomes an issue on unpressurized systems or open containers of water.

.......If you run a radiator recovery system it applies.

Gotta disagree, still makes no difference. System is still pressurized regardless. Actually tested this myself and have witnessed several others. Put a cooling system under pressure and the boiling point of the water will be the same at altitude and at sea level when the pressure in the system is the same. On a recovery system, the cap will allow the overflow to push out into a tank, but the system will remain under whatever pressure is on the cap. It doesn't care or know what the outside air pressure is and it has no effect. The only time the fluid is drawn back into the system is when it cools, and that's after it's not running. Otherwise it will remain a closed, pressurized system.

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Originally posted by Ron C.:

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Originally posted by Coloradoracer:

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Originally posted by Ron C.:

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Originally posted by Coloradoracer:

quote:

Originally posted by Ron C.:
Don't forget to factor in elevation, the higher the elevation,...the lower the boiling point of water. Example.....5280'......boils at 203 degrees.

This has zero effect on a cooling system as it is a closed system and not subject to the effects of altitude. That only becomes an issue on unpressurized systems or open containers of water.

.......If you run a radiator recovery system it applies.

Gotta disagree, still makes no difference. System is still pressurized regardless. Actually tested this myself and have witnessed several others. Put a cooling system under pressure and the boiling point of the water will be the same at altitude and at sea level when the pressure in the system is the same. On a recovery system, the cap will allow the overflow to push out into a tank, but the system will remain under whatever pressure is on the cap. It doesn't care or know what the outside air pressure is and it has no effect. The only time the fluid is drawn back into the system is when it cools, and that's after it's not running. Otherwise it will remain a closed, pressurized system.

......OK to disagree. But think about it. Seems your test was static. If your vehicle is at 5280 ft, how does the water think it's at Sea Level if it was never there.

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Originally posted by Coloradoracer:

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Originally posted by Ron C.:

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Originally posted by Coloradoracer:

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Originally posted by Ron C.:

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Originally posted by Coloradoracer:

quote:

Originally posted by Ron C.:
Don't forget to factor in elevation, the higher the elevation,...the lower the boiling point of water. Example.....5280'......boils at 203 degrees.

This has zero effect on a cooling system as it is a closed system and not subject to the effects of altitude. That only becomes an issue on unpressurized systems or open containers of water.

.......If you run a radiator recovery system it applies.

Gotta disagree, still makes no difference. System is still pressurized regardless. Actually tested this myself and have witnessed several others. Put a cooling system under pressure and the boiling point of the water will be the same at altitude and at sea level when the pressure in the system is the same. On a recovery system, the cap will allow the overflow to push out into a tank, but the system will remain under whatever pressure is on the cap. It doesn't care or know what the outside air pressure is and it has no effect. The only time the fluid is drawn back into the system is when it cools, and that's after it's not running. Otherwise it will remain a closed, pressurized system.

......OK to disagree. But think about it. Seems your test was static. If your vehicle is at 5280 ft, how does the water think it's at Sea Level if it was never there.

You're missing the point Ron. The cooling system doesn't know nor does it care. If it's pressurized to 16lbs, it's at 16 lbs regardless of altitude. Boiling temp of water will be at whatever the pressure is INSIDE the cooling system. Air pressure outside has ZERO effect. Even if I started at 30,000 ft, when the pressure is at 16 lbs inside the system there it will be the same 16 lbs at sea level! 16lbs is 16lbs when it's contained. No difference. Altitude only becomes a player when the system is OPEN and kept only to atmospheric. If you put 16 lbs or pressure in a bottle at sea level and seal it, what will it be at 10,000 ft? 16lbs!!! It will only change if the bottle expanded in proportion to the pressure loss outside the bottle, and then the only reason it would change INSIDE the bottle would be due to a change in volume. Expand the bottle, more volume would be required to maintain the same pressure. Make the bottle smaller, pressure would increase unless volume inside is changed with it. The issue with overheating at high altitudes is not because the coolant is boiling at a lower temp, it's because there is LESS AIR outside the radiator to cool it. Air is thinner, less is pulled through the radiator. Want better cooling at high altitude? Bigger radiator and bigger fan. Allows for and creates more surface area to cool.

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Originally posted by Ron C.: right if everybody lived at Sea Level. But we don't. What your missing is the complete equation. Atmospheric Pressure is part of the story, which changes as elevation increases. At Sea Level your 16 psi also has 14.7 psi added to it. That 14.7 is in the system if that motor ever saw the system opened when building the motor, chech fluid level, changing a head gasket or whatever. A racer at 5280' would add 12 psi (atmospheric pressure) to the 16 psi for a pressure drop of 2.7 psi which equals a 8.1 degree drop in water boiling point.

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Originally posted by Coloradoracer:

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Originally posted by Ron C.: right if everybody lived at Sea Level. But we don't. What your missing is the complete equation. Atmospheric Pressure is part of the story, which changes as elevation increases. At Sea Level your 16 psi also has 14.7 psi added to it. That 14.7 is in the system if that motor ever saw the system opened when building the motor, chech fluid level, changing a head gasket or whatever. A racer at 5280' would add 12 psi (atmospheric pressure) to the 16 psi for a pressure drop of 2.7 psi which equals a 8.1 degree drop in water boiling point.

Ron, altitude still makes no difference. I lived at altitude most of my life. Just live here in florida for now. When you cap the system, it's at atmospheric....but you're not adding 16lbs in addition to that, it's reaching 16 lbs TOTAL. In Denver, the air pressure is approx 12.5psi. At sea level it's approx 14.7 psi. I'm aware of the air pressure change with elevation, VERY AWARE. However, in your statement you are saying when you cap the system, you're going 16 lbs above atmospheric with the cap. You are not! The cap will relieve at 16 psi, period. If you start at 14.7, it will climb to the relief point of the cap, in this case we are saying 16 psi, and no higher... NOT 16 PSI ABOVE atmospheric....If you start at 12.5 psi, it will climb to 16 psi, period...Once the cooling system is capped, the outside air pressure is no longer a factor, as the system will pressurize to the relief setting on the cap. If it pressurized to 16lbs ABOVE atmospheric, you'd have 30+lbs of pressure in your cooling system. At 12.5 psi, if it added 16lbs above that you'd have 28.5lbs in your cooling system. You don't! With a 16 lb cap you'll have 16lbs, period, regardless of altitude! It's a CLOSED SYSTEM....outside air pressure has ZERO effect on the pressure inside it.

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Originally posted by Ron C.:

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Originally posted by Coloradoracer:

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Originally posted by Ron C.: right if everybody lived at Sea Level. But we don't. What your missing is the complete equation. Atmospheric Pressure is part of the story, which changes as elevation increases. At Sea Level your 16 psi also has 14.7 psi added to it. That 14.7 is in the system if that motor ever saw the system opened when building the motor, chech fluid level, changing a head gasket or whatever. A racer at 5280' would add 12 psi (atmospheric pressure) to the 16 psi for a pressure drop of 2.7 psi which equals a 8.1 degree drop in water boiling point.

Ron, altitude still makes no difference. I lived at altitude most of my life. Just live here in florida for now. When you cap the system, it's at atmospheric....but you're not adding 16lbs in addition to that, it's reaching 16 lbs TOTAL. In Denver, the air pressure is approx 12.5psi. At sea level it's approx 14.7 psi. I'm aware of the air pressure change with elevation, VERY AWARE. However, in your statement you are saying when you cap the system, you're going 16 lbs above atmospheric with the cap. You are not! The cap will relieve at 16 psi, period. If you start at 14.7, it will climb to the relief point of the cap, in this case we are saying 16 psi, and no higher... NOT 16 PSI ABOVE atmospheric....If you start at 12.5 psi, it will climb to 16 psi, period...Once the cooling system is capped, the outside air pressure is no longer a factor, as the system will pressurize to the relief setting on the cap. If it pressurized to 16lbs ABOVE atmospheric, you'd have 30+lbs of pressure in your cooling system. At 12.5 psi, if it added 16lbs above that you'd have 28.5lbs in your cooling system. You don't! With a 16 lb cap you'll have 16lbs, period, regardless of altitude! It's a CLOSED SYSTEM....outside air pressure has ZERO effect on the pressure inside it.

......LOL.....you can't fool the Laws of Physics.....you have a nice day.

quote:

Originally posted by Coloradoracer:

quote:

Originally posted by Ron C.:

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Originally posted by Coloradoracer:

quote:

Originally posted by Ron C.: right if everybody lived at Sea Level. But we don't. What your missing is the complete equation. Atmospheric Pressure is part of the story, which changes as elevation increases. At Sea Level your 16 psi also has 14.7 psi added to it. That 14.7 is in the system if that motor ever saw the system opened when building the motor, chech fluid level, changing a head gasket or whatever. A racer at 5280' would add 12 psi (atmospheric pressure) to the 16 psi for a pressure drop of 2.7 psi which equals a 8.1 degree drop in water boiling point.

Ron, altitude still makes no difference. I lived at altitude most of my life. Just live here in florida for now. When you cap the system, it's at atmospheric....but you're not adding 16lbs in addition to that, it's reaching 16 lbs TOTAL. In Denver, the air pressure is approx 12.5psi. At sea level it's approx 14.7 psi. I'm aware of the air pressure change with elevation, VERY AWARE. However, in your statement you are saying when you cap the system, you're going 16 lbs above atmospheric with the cap. You are not! The cap will relieve at 16 psi, period. If you start at 14.7, it will climb to the relief point of the cap, in this case we are saying 16 psi, and no higher... NOT 16 PSI ABOVE atmospheric....If you start at 12.5 psi, it will climb to 16 psi, period...Once the cooling system is capped, the outside air pressure is no longer a factor, as the system will pressurize to the relief setting on the cap. If it pressurized to 16lbs ABOVE atmospheric, you'd have 30+lbs of pressure in your cooling system. At 12.5 psi, if it added 16lbs above that you'd have 28.5lbs in your cooling system. You don't! With a 16 lb cap you'll have 16lbs, period, regardless of altitude! It's a CLOSED SYSTEM....outside air pressure has ZERO effect on the pressure inside it.

......LOL.....you can't fool the Laws of Physics.....you have a nice day.

Tell ya what Ron, instead of continuing to make an issue of this, let's just agree to disagree. Nice thing is we can have a good discussion now, regardless of what it is. That's what makes this forum better than the others. We good?

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I also put a bead of silicone around the tubing to assure it will hold vacuum.

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how do you pick the correct cap for the system you are using(recovery vs not)

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Originally posted by Canted Valve:

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I also put a bead of silicone around the tubing to assure it will hold vacuum.

?. Don't you need it vented to the atmosphere, per Scott's drawing? Otherwise you're pressurizing the vessel during coolant discharge???