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What is involved or required in making a powerglide able, and reliable to be used low and high gear or high gear only? What would the limitations be as far as weight for a car to run a high gear only power glide?
 
Posts: 216 | Location: NJ | Registered: January 29, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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We were doing this 20 years ago with an ATI glide---didn't change anything about the car or the trans. Lost about .025 .027 and a couple of MPH if I remember right. Under Cover Dragster running 4.80. Been a long time ago
 
Posts: 6274 | Location: everywhere | Registered: March 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of wideopen231
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Making it HI/LO is pretty simple.Buy a FTI hi/lo valvebody and bolt it in. Only issue I have been told is more heat when leaving in hi.

Can not say how well it works but will soon. I bought the FTI aluminum valve body cpl moths ago. Two reasons lighter and according to their testing its .02 quicker react and old guys need all they can get.LOL




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Posts: 4506 | Location: Greensboro NC | Registered: May 24, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Some now offer 1+2 for Glide TB VB. Others also offer 1+2 and 1+2+3 VB for the th400.

In 2017 I called FTI and asked about consistency when running on the convertor stall for an extended period of time not using 1st gear. I was told that this would not change the consistency of the car.

After installing and using a 1+2 VB (not FTI) in my th400 I agree with what FTI told me.
 
Posts: 2665 | Location: 53056 | Registered: December 30, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of CURTIS REED
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I did quite a bit of high gear racing in 2017. I am a footbrake car though so I can't comment about consistency of leaving off the brake in high gear. I can comment on the car and heat.

Heat is your biggest concern. If you don't have 2 coolers on board or one of the fluid circulation pumps to use between rounds you will probably have to have a fan of some sort to help cool. I started using one of the carpet drying type fans that I could just blow air under the car (roadster in my case). I later got a cheap electric leaf blower and made a pvc tube that had an ell on the end to blow air right on the pan. Worked great. It's really only a big problem when you get in the later rounds and time gets short. Instead of being 190° after a run it would be 220° usually depending on ambient temps.

A WAG about the car leaving is probably .020 slower RT.

Here is a nice thing about being able to do it. I have changed to high gear only in the middle of a race when the track started getting iffy. It also messes with people when they think they know you. The bad part is that it feels sooooo sloooooow. LOL It took a little getting used to it. My car went from high 5.90s to mid 6.20s and I lost 1-1.25mph It definitely make the race look different for your competitor.

I have had guys spot me and pass me early only to drive back around them when they think you are covered. My car was stupid consistent doing it. It just gets boring.

Curtis



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Posts: 3139 | Location: KIEFER, OK. | Registered: August 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by CURTIS REED:
I did quite a bit of high gear racing in 2017. I am a footbrake car though so I can't comment about consistency of leaving off the brake in high gear. I can comment on the car and heat.

Heat is your biggest concern. If you don't have 2 coolers on board or one of the fluid circulation pumps to use between rounds you will probably have to have a fan of some sort to help cool. I started using one of the carpet drying type fans that I could just blow air under the car (roadster in my case). I later got a cheap electric leaf blower and made a pvc tube that had an ell on the end to blow air right on the pan. Worked great. It's really only a big problem when you get in the later rounds and time gets short. Instead of being 190° after a run it would be 220° usually depending on ambient temps.

A WAG about the car leaving is probably .020 slower RT.

Here is a nice thing about being able to do it. I have changed to high gear only in the middle of a race when the track started getting iffy. It also messes with people when they think they know you. The bad part is that it feels sooooo sloooooow. LOL It took a little getting used to it. My car went from high 5.90s to mid 6.20s and I lost 1-1.25mph It definitely make the race look different for your competitor.

I have had guys spot me and pass me early only to drive back around them when they think you are covered. My car was stupid consistent doing it. It just gets boring.

Curtis


That is impressive. I think in your case the old Shogun? flexplate type cooler may be a big help. They were a very thin fan that bolted between flexplate and convertor and they moved a lot of air around convertor and transmission. Not sure what ever happened to them but you could feel them moving air and heat out.


https://postimg.cc/gallery/np3zpruo/
"Dunning-Kruger Effect"
-a type of Cognitive bias where people with little expertise or ability assume they have superior expertise or ability. This overestimation occurs as a result of the fact that they do not have enough knowledge to know they don't have enough knowledge.

Before you argue with someone ask yourself, "Is this person mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of a different perspective?" If not there is no point to argue.

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Posts: 4265 | Location: United States of Texas | Registered: April 02, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Call Greg at FTI to verify. Pretty sure he said car would be .5 (1/4) slower and react was little more than the .02,not as sure about react part.

WAIT WINNING GET BORING? New concept there. I do think that if you know number it will change it would confuse hell of of competition. 1st round 5.90,2nd rd 5.90 and 3rd rd you dial 6.20.




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Posts: 4506 | Location: Greensboro NC | Registered: May 24, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post



DRR S/Pro
Picture of CURTIS REED
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quote:
Originally posted by Curly1:
That is impressive. I think in your case the old Shogun? flexplate type cooler may be a big help. They were a very thin fan that bolted between flexplate and convertor and they moved a lot of air around convertor and transmission. Not sure what ever happened to them but you could feel them moving air and heat out.


The problem is that you don't run it long enough for that to help much.



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2017 and 2018 Osage Casinos Tulsa Raceway Park No-Box Champion

2018 Div4 Goodguys Hammer award winner
 
Posts: 3139 | Location: KIEFER, OK. | Registered: August 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of CURTIS REED
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quote:
Originally posted by wideopen231:

WAIT WINNING GET BORING? New concept there. I do think that if you know number it will change it would confuse hell of of competition. 1st round 5.90,2nd rd 5.90 and 3rd rd you dial 6.20.


Never said winning got boring, the ride gets boring. LOL I won my first championship in 2017 mostly high gear that year.

Back to back runs at our Nostalgia race that year. Air was much better than the times I posted earlier.

-0.002 0.038

1.437 1.273

3.994 3.731

6.153 5.863

112.51 113.70

8.076 7.762

9.745 9.416

133.71 134.56



____________________________
2017 and 2018 Osage Casinos Tulsa Raceway Park No-Box Champion

2018 Div4 Goodguys Hammer award winner
 
Posts: 3139 | Location: KIEFER, OK. | Registered: August 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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If presently using a 1st gear TB, here’s something you can try that won’t cost you anything if you have a delay box with a timer output or ignition with timer function. What this will do is give you very close incremental numbers of what to expect when leaving in a gear other than 1st.

Using your delay box timer output to shift your transmission, program the timer to turn ON at 0.001 and OFF at 0.300 after TB release. This will NOT give you consistent RT numbers, but all the incremental times will be very close (faster) to .015 as if leaving in a gear other than 1st.

To use the above method and HAVE consistent RT, you program the ON time to 0.32 and OFF to 0.62. This allows the car front tires to clear the Stage beams as consistent as your normal rum, but will reduce (faster) all the incrementals by another 0.05 to 0.08 over the first method I list.

Like Curtis wrote, “had guys spot me and pass me early only to drive back around”, this very often happens when your opponent is dialed up to 0.30 faster than you when leaving in a different gear. You will be chasing.

My experience is that you can possibly run 5 to 7 mph faster 1/8 mile than your opponent that is dialed the exact same as you when not leaving in 1st gear.
 
Posts: 2665 | Location: 53056 | Registered: December 30, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by markemark:
If presently using a 1st gear TB, here’s something you can try that won’t cost you anything if you have a delay box with a timer output or ignition with timer function. What this will do is give you very close incremental numbers of what to expect when leaving in a gear other than 1st.

Using your delay box timer output to shift your transmission, program the timer to turn ON at 0.001 and OFF at 0.300 after TB release. This will NOT give you consistent RT numbers, but all the incremental times will be very close (faster) to .015 as if leaving in a gear other than 1st.

To use the above method and HAVE consistent RT, you program the ON time to 0.32 and OFF to 0.62. This allows the car front tires to clear the Stage beams as consistent as your normal rum, but will reduce (faster) all the incrementals by another 0.05 to 0.08 over the first method I list.

Like Curtis wrote, “had guys spot me and pass me early only to drive back around”, this very often happens when your opponent is dialed up to 0.30 faster than you when leaving in a different gear. You will be chasing.

My experience is that you can possibly run 5 to 7 mph faster 1/8 mile than your opponent that is dialed the exact same as you when not leaving in 1st gear.


I can't remember the minimum 'safe' shift time that he gave, but I remember Greg at FTI saying that shifting too early at WOT is hard on stuff.


Tony Leonard
 
Posts: 3236 | Location: Inver Grove Heights, MN | Registered: March 18, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Lenny5160:

I can't remember the minimum 'safe' shift time that he gave, but I remember Greg at FTI saying that shifting too early at WOT is hard on stuff.



I hope Greg will reply to this, it would be good to know what applies to the Glide.

I have used the 0.001 shift time no less than 20 times and the 0.32 shift time no less than 200 times and still use this.

My trans had over 1000 runs on it when I had the 1+2 installed by ATD (Hipsters) last year while being freshened.

The only thing I was advised NOT to do prior to this, was to NOT shift from 1st gear directly to 3rd gear without stopping at 2nd.
 
Posts: 2665 | Location: 53056 | Registered: December 30, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Mike Beck
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There is a footbraker in Div 1 that does this, small car, maybe a Monza? I know he raced my son once at a Big $ race. I told my son not to look around for him because of the way the car has terrible ET for the MPH. Maybe some others will know who I am talking about, he has been around a long time and does very well.
 
Posts: 1444 | Location: South River, NJ | Registered: June 19, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Mine slowed down .5 in 1/8 little over 1 mph 2800# SBC with 4.56 gear.I had no heat issues with trans.Did notice reaction time window did open up.Had to adjust delay box around .060,and some suspension changes.
 
Posts: 87 | Location: cincinnati | Registered: November 08, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post



DRR Sportsman
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Here I am.

High gear valve bodies are very popular. I will first say that everything has its time and place. We are running these now behind BIG (2400) power with great success. I have spent many hours developing converters and valve bodies to make them live and be consistent in this environment.

As far as shifting early such as .02 to say .05 on a power glide here is what happens. As with any car when the car leaves the starting line and before the turbine in the converter meets 40% of impeller speed (you can see this on your Data logger) torque multiplication IS occurring!! So lets use an easy torque multiplier of 2.5:1 as any typical hard hit converter would have for our scenario. 800 ft lbs of torque multiplied by 2.5 equals 2000 ft lbs. So now we are asking our transmission to release the band and apply the clutch under the heaviest of loads(the first 60FT) and at 2000 ft lbs of torque. Premature clutch wear will occur regardless of line pressure!!!! It can be done and has been done. It may not cause immediate failure but I promise your transmission will not like you. When you leave the starting line in high gear the clutch is already applied not trying to come to a stop to hold. You ask "why doesn't it bother it when it shifts down track". Well because torque multiplication is gone and therefore easier to stop the clutches. This is why when you do go up in power you must put more clutches or more line pressure to combat the time it takes for the clutch to stop.

TH400 shifting early!! Much easier on this unit as the gear ratio difference, the size of the clutch and the fact that the clutch is not inside the drum that reacts in low gear makes it a better candidate for shifting early. In a powerglide a component has to release and one has to apply to shift. In a th400 a component never releases,it just keeps applying more components with each other!!

We currently have a high gear only car that many of us know (Danny Nelson) who has been 6.0's @ 240+ for many runs in high gear only without hurting the unit.

Greg


FTI Performance
Competition Converters and Racing Transmissions
"Some call it cheating, we call it the competitive edge."
www.FTIPerformance.com
info@ftiperformance.com





 
Posts: 169 | Location: Deland, FL | Registered: August 31, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Thanks for all the info guys!! My car is 3400 with me in it, 10.0 at 133-134, will a car with that weight and power be ok for high gear only with a valve body like the FTI one? Any change in converter if not using full time as a high gear piece?
 
Posts: 216 | Location: NJ | Registered: January 29, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Curly1
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I have not done any back to back testing but there was a few times when the shifter did not go all the way into low and on my car it lost about .40 in the 1/8 mile.


https://postimg.cc/gallery/np3zpruo/
"Dunning-Kruger Effect"
-a type of Cognitive bias where people with little expertise or ability assume they have superior expertise or ability. This overestimation occurs as a result of the fact that they do not have enough knowledge to know they don't have enough knowledge.

Before you argue with someone ask yourself, "Is this person mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of a different perspective?" If not there is no point to argue.

4X NE2 CHAMPION. 2020 TDRA NE2 Champion
 
Posts: 4265 | Location: United States of Texas | Registered: April 02, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by FTI:
Here I am.

High gear valve bodies are very popular. I will first say that everything has its time and place. We are running these now behind BIG (2400) power with great success. I have spent many hours developing converters and valve bodies to make them live and be consistent in this environment.

As far as shifting early such as .02 to say .05 on a power glide here is what happens. As with any car when the car leaves the starting line and before the turbine in the converter meets 40% of impeller speed (you can see this on your Data logger) torque multiplication IS occurring!! So lets use an easy torque multiplier of 2.5:1 as any typical hard hit converter would have for our scenario. 800 ft lbs of torque multiplied by 2.5 equals 2000 ft lbs. So now we are asking our transmission to release the band and apply the clutch under the heaviest of loads(the first 60FT) and at 2000 ft lbs of torque. Premature clutch wear will occur regardless of line pressure!!!! It can be done and has been done. It may not cause immediate failure but I promise your transmission will not like you. When you leave the starting line in high gear the clutch is already applied not trying to come to a stop to hold. You ask "why doesn't it bother it when it shifts down track". Well because torque multiplication is gone and therefore easier to stop the clutches. This is why when you do go up in power you must put more clutches or more line pressure to combat the time it takes for the clutch to stop.

TH400 shifting early!! Much easier on this unit as the gear ratio difference, the size of the clutch and the fact that the clutch is not inside the drum that reacts in low gear makes it a better candidate for shifting early. In a powerglide a component has to release and one has to apply to shift. In a th400 a component never releases,it just keeps applying more components with each other!!

We currently have a high gear only car that many of us know (Danny Nelson) who has been 6.0's @ 240+ for many runs in high gear only without hurting the unit.

Greg


Treed me, I was going to mention Danny's car.
 
Posts: 540 | Location: central Ar | Registered: June 21, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of CURTIS REED
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quote:
Originally posted by DANGERBOY:
Mine slowed down .5 in 1/8 little over 1 mph 2800# SBC with 4.56 gear.I had no heat issues with trans.Did notice reaction time window did open up.Had to adjust delay box around .060,and some suspension changes.


We have many double race days where in the late rounds you have 10-18 minutes between rounds. Is your trans cool enough without some help to make 4-5 rounds like that?



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2017 and 2018 Osage Casinos Tulsa Raceway Park No-Box Champion

2018 Div4 Goodguys Hammer award winner
 
Posts: 3139 | Location: KIEFER, OK. | Registered: August 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of FTI
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Ha I just typed a big long reply and hit the wrong button!! so I will try again.

Brandon Taylor will hot lap his till the cooler lines melt off lol.. love ya Brandon.

Yes they will make more temp but if you run a high quality transmission fluid like the FTI brand Wink or any other quality synthetic and a quality cooler with good airflow you will be fine. Moniter how you reacts change with temp. You will find this is a very versatile club to have in your bag.

We typically see 5 tenths in et loss and .40 in react. The faster the car the less et loss we see.

Greg


FTI Performance
Competition Converters and Racing Transmissions
"Some call it cheating, we call it the competitive edge."
www.FTIPerformance.com
info@ftiperformance.com





 
Posts: 169 | Location: Deland, FL | Registered: August 31, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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