I thought I was talking about CHESS...Oh what the H E L L....So what about SOME of the promoters putting let’s just throw a number out there... 100 drivers in his on race....I know it’s not cheating but what about actually LEGAL if you could prove it....POPCORN TIME....WHOMP OUT...

quote:

Originally posted by Richard Hammond:

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Originally posted by Mike Beck:

quote:

Originally posted by Richard Hammond:

quote:

Originally posted by The Pirate:
What races are Davis boxes illegal?

Pretty much all of them. It's a traction control box.

I thought it was a counter. Helped you determine track position.

I still think a device that can see the tree and let go of the trans brake for you would be much more helpful than being able to run dead-on.

What good is it to be able to and run on your number if you can't hit the tree? Certainly helps you make a decision at big end, or medium end since most of these races seem to be half track.........

No Davis makes traction controls and bump boxes.

Traction control is what most would consider running the dots, and DOES involve a feedback loop. At very least the spirit of the rules make these illegal.

However, has anyone proven and willing to share if the traction control type systems are accurate enough to be better than a decent bracket car is without them?
Often theory doesn't apply well.

quote:

Originally posted by dragkid1990:
Im not 100% sure on the wording but I believe that it says the Grid with the drive shaft counter (or the Grid itself someone correct me if I'm wrong) is illegal except for in Pro Mod,or any other traction control device. (one that would allow a car to run same number every time)

FYI, go here http://promod.nhra.com/userfil...AcceptedProducts.pdf and scroll down to page 72. Look at the line that reads MSD 7720 / 7730

quote:

Originally posted by dragkid1990:
Im not 100% sure on the wording but I believe that it says the Grid with the drive shaft counter (or the Grid itself someone correct me if I'm wrong) is illegal except for in Pro Mod,or any other traction control device.

At a glance i miss read the name of this thread as "CHEST" as in Snap-On or Linda Vaughn. Bummer.

Wake up, its 2019. If you cant show up to the track and run this pu$$y 1/8 mile shyt all day within less than 1 theres something wrong with you and your jalopy. The days of even having an advantage if you were to cheat are over so long as all the big races are run on the official track length of democrats everywhere.

quote:

Originally posted by Richard Hammond:

quote:

Originally posted by The Pirate:
For the record I have dabbled in NHRA racing a time or two and know the rules over there pretty well. Because of some awesome promoters and the bracket racers supporting them there are some amazing races coming up that I want to be part of.

I simply am asking what the rules actually are so I don’t get the “azz beating of my life!”
And, I don’t really care to take a knife to a gun fight because I think I know what the rules are.

The same rules NHRA uses are the same for big money brackets. Hopefully all of the promoters including the ones that post on here will step up and make some much needed changes to their flyers.

Can you swap cars at an NHRA race?

I went to a sanctioning bodies version of their big money bracket race. They didn't know how to separate no box from footbrake and there were no boxers with boxes in the car.

How to cheat at bracket racing is still a pretty good question and aside from the IHRA ban and the slew rate deal I've not heard of anything proven. But with the money that's out there I'm sure people are thinking.

quote:

Originally posted by Bucky:

quote:

Originally posted by Richard Hammond:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Beck:

quote:

Originally posted by Richard Hammond:

quote:

Originally posted by The Pirate:
What races are Davis boxes illegal?

Pretty much all of them. It's a traction control box.

I thought it was a counter. Helped you determine track position.

I still think a device that can see the tree and let go of the trans brake for you would be much more helpful than being able to run dead-on.

What good is it to be able to and run on your number if you can't hit the tree? Certainly helps you make a decision at big end, or medium end since most of these races seem to be half track.........

No Davis makes traction controls and bump boxes.

Traction control is what most would consider running the dots, and DOES involve a feedback loop. At very least the spirit of the rules make these illegal.

However, has anyone proven and willing to share if the traction control type systems are accurate enough to be better than a decent bracket car is without them?
Often theory doesn't apply well.

Why do you consider riding the dots traction control? And has anyone actually proven that this works?

the lack of tech, and random inspections seems to be a bigger issue to me. sure people are cheating. it shouldnt be a shocker to anyone. But when I am sitting in the lanes of a foot brake, or no box race and the car next to me has a delay box mounted on the dash I would think thats pretty obvious.

quote:

Originally posted by fastman-99:
the lack of tech, and random inspections seems to be a bigger issue to me. sure people are cheating. it shouldnt be a shocker to anyone. But when I am sitting in the lanes of a foot brake, or no box race and the car next to me has a delay box mounted on the dash I would think thats pretty obvious.

Then go ahead and protest them. Take a picture and post the names of the cheaters.

quote:

So what about SOME of the promoters putting let’s just throw a number out there... 100 drivers in his on race....I know it’s not cheating but what about actually LEGAL if you could prove it....POPCORN TIME....WHOMP OUT...

This and also allowing people to buy more entries after they lose 1st round and lose the re-entry round.

quote:

Originally posted by cartman:

quote:

So what about SOME of the promoters putting let’s just throw a number out there... 100 drivers in his on race....I know it’s not cheating but what about actually LEGAL if you could prove it....POPCORN TIME....WHOMP OUT...

This and also allowing people to buy more entries after they lose 1st round and lose the re-entry round.

Yeah seen that a lot an most don’t even know that’s going on....OH THE MIGHTY DOLLAR....

The promoters stacking the deck is nothing new...while I dont agree with it, the promoter should have some morals while takin our money for entry and offering free entry and buybacks to people in order for the promoter to collect a winners check too on top of what they might make putting on the race?

TOTALLY MORALLY AND ETHICALLY WRONG FOR A BUSINESS. Clearly making money off of the race was not enough?

Hell why not race your own race...very similar...MOST promoters dont do this for fear of upsetting their customers. In today's landscape no one seems to care?

On another note I have yet to see a set of rules mimic NHRA rules at a big money race.

Until someone proves someone is cheating in any way other than re entering after buying back...from what I can tell IT simply did not happen...JMO.

quote:

Originally posted by TORQIN:
Until someone proves someone is cheating in any way other than re entering after buying back...from what I can tell IT simply did not happen...JMO.

X2....!!!!!!!

quote:

Why do you consider riding the dots traction control? And has anyone actually proven that this works?

By all definitions I have come across, that's exactly what it is.
Now, if you are talking about manually entering and dictating timing at all parts of a run when you are at the trailer, there isn't a thing wrong with that, that that is NOT riding the dots.

Riding the dots has to do with replicating the "perfect run" with a feedback loop where the loop is controlling the timing based on what is happening as the car goes down the track. This can be done by simple comparisons of time vs rpm, or by taking the next derivative and looking at acceleration (based upon rpm data, not generally accelerometers) vs time and incorporating that data as well.

Certainly you can improve your game and your consistency by regulating timing if you have a traction limited car. This is YOU managing your power to improve traction or alter your time. This is not slew control nor what most would define as traction control.

Anything with a feedback loop that regulates power in any way based upon live engine or driveshaft rpm data has the POTENTIAL to repeat time after time. The precision and repeat-ability were and have been in question. It may work great controlling a car that loses traction suddenly. But may not have the resolution to make a car repeat to .005. But as I said, I have run into nobody that has proven either way. Jok Nickelson I believe was the one that wrote a pretty good article on slew control a number of years back. There was some indication that there would be a follow up article after testing. But I never saw any follow up. And I may be remembering this incorrectly, because it happens to me sometimes. LOL. The Davis box and MSD's slew control both operate based on feedback loops.

Not all feedback loops are a bad thing. Every car made in the past 20 years has them. O2 sensors send data to the ecu which adjusts to optimize air/fuel mixture. Some race cars have them too when running efi. But that is really another subject.

Oh, and the deal with promoters not making clear rules addressing this and not enforcing the buyback deal....well that is the sort of crap I would never tolerate again as a racer. That's bad business.

And....I don't think there is any widespread or limited amount of electronic cheating going on that is costing anyone anything. But without some verification by the tracks/promoters, we simply don't know. What good is a rule if you don't enforce it at some level?

Fastman sees it....A foot brake race where a car has 7, thats right 7, buttons on the steering wheel and in disscribing what they do says one is for bump up and one for bump down----hows that work with a foot brake car? I saw this a couple of years back and asked. In the case of a foot brake race they used to say NO buttons on the steering wheel but now it dosen't seem to matter. Get them out and if you have a pro brake (in foot brake?) put a switch on the dash, same for your line lock.

I've been in the promoters shoes and I know how hard this is to address. But I posted the rules on our flyers, I spent countless hours speaking to knowledgeable people like Lonnie Grimm who is extremely respected and was head of NMRA / NMCA tech and now PDRA tech on these topics because I wasn't schooled in them. I then hired Cody Harger to do the testing and yes we teched semis down every race we had in the DRR Series.

Today's promoters have a GREAT opportunity to enforce the rules. Racers want to race. It's not like 6 years ago where we were afraid to loose 5 guys because seat belts were out of date or they didn't want to cert chassis or wear pants. You tell me guys are going to pass on a 500k because they have to wear arm restraints or are afraid to have their car looked at? Hell we have alternate lists 200 long! This is a great opportunity to step up, straighten things out and take the BS bad wrap good ol boy image off the table.

I get live coverage for the winners circle is important and it should be. I'm a huge advocate. But when you show them going down the track and rolling back to the winner's circle, there was NO tech performed. Just say'n The fan's wait 30 minutes for the final round to come around in some instances, what's another 15 minutes.

Again I'm a customer, these promoters are also my customers and most are some of my closest friends. I just think there is a great opportunity to bring the professionalism to the table for bracket racing by fine tuning these issues and possibly growing the fields by ensuring the customer base things are on the up and up.

SL... healing up

This is an interesting thread! I think we are past the days of one particular car standing out from the rest due to having "traction control." I have driven several cars that I don't think would be any better if they were equipped with the arc module tied into the grid, or if they had the profiler with the "add back" feature.

"Cheating" doesn't necessarily have to be illegal devices on the racecar. "Accidental misinterpretation" of the grey areas by racers can give themselves an advantage. ALL PROMOTERS should write the rules out in English. Make the grey areas BLACK AND WHITE.

How many times can a car go down the track in a single round of competition, INCLUDING RE-ENTRY. (No exceptions!) (Example - If I double my car and lose both entries 1st round and re-entry, can a buddy buy an entry, pay re-entry, and take it back up? Is that car eliminated and available, or has it been down twice that round so it's done?)

At what point are tech cards no longer sold? Is it 1st pair of the round in burnout, or is it until the round is completed? (This solves the above issue!)

What EXACTLY is a NEW ENTRY when it comes to time runs? Is it "car NOR driver have been down the track at all?" Is it new driver IN this car that has been down? Is it a new car to a driver that has been down? MAKE THIS RULE BLACK AND WHITE!

I personally DO NOT care what the rules are. As long as they are written out on the flyer, PRIOR to the gates open, and are the same for everyone there (Regardless of your name, if you are a title sponsor, buddy's cousin's best man)!

Timing system woes --- I think there are WAY MORE issues in the US than most can fathom! Reality is you can own a track, and run a "local" show for $1,200 on Sat night for 6 months and never know you have an issue. Let a big money show roll into town! Ever go to a big money race and the first time run of the week the lanes are 50/50 right/left. Then by 3rd or 4th round, 90% line up in the left, and only 10% want the right?

quote:

Originally posted by Bucky:

quote:

Why do you consider riding the dots traction control? And has anyone actually proven that this works?

By all definitions I have come across, that's exactly what it is.
Now, if you are talking about manually entering and dictating timing at all parts of a run when you are at the trailer, there isn't a thing wrong with that, that that is NOT riding the dots.

Riding the dots has to do with replicating the "perfect run" with a feedback loop where the loop is controlling the timing based on what is happening as the car goes down the track. This can be done by simple comparisons of time vs rpm, or by taking the next derivative and looking at acceleration (based upon rpm data, not generally accelerometers) vs time and incorporating that data as well.

Certainly you can improve your game and your consistency by regulating timing if you have a traction limited car. This is YOU managing your power to improve traction or alter your time. This is not slew control nor what most would define as traction control.

Anything with a feedback loop that regulates power in any way based upon live engine or driveshaft rpm data has the POTENTIAL to repeat time after time. The precision and repeat-ability were and have been in question. It may work great controlling a car that loses traction suddenly. But may not have the resolution to make a car repeat to .005. But as I said, I have run into nobody that has proven either way. Jok Nickelson I believe was the one that wrote a pretty good article on slew control a number of years back. There was some indication that there would be a follow up article after testing. But I never saw any follow up. And I may be remembering this incorrectly, because it happens to me sometimes. LOL. The Davis box and MSD's slew control both operate based on feedback loops.

Not all feedback loops are a bad thing. Every car made in the past 20 years has them. O2 sensors send data to the ecu which adjusts to optimize air/fuel mixture. Some race cars have them too when running efi. But that is really another subject.

Yes I remember that article Jok wrote. He claimed he was going to put whatever digital box in his car and show the world that you can ride the dots to the winners circle every round. And he has yet to show anything of the sort.