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I went to a white collar state college for two years until I realized I was either to stupid or to ignorant to comprehend what benefit it was going to be for me to stay in school. I enrolled in a blue collar trade school, and there I did learn that I had enough mechanical aptitude to continue on that career path. In the past 53 years of my career, I have had two sons and two grandsons follow me in that occupation, all of whom have got degrees from trade schools and now have good paying, promising careers. With all that being said, all of my offspring worked with me while going to school as an OJT type deal, so they had some practical training other than just in the classroom. Years ago I hired two recently graduated ASE certified "technicians". One of the first jobs I gave them was to do a brake job on a class 8 truck. The next morning the truck left the yard and came right back in the driver saying he couldnt stop the truck. I took the brakes apart and found missing rollers and return springs. When the mechanics came in I asked WTH. They told me their instructor told them they didnt need all that stuff. That just ruined my image of a classroom environment. One other thing that I found out I have been doing wrong my whole life was filling engine oil filters before installing, especially on turbo engines. My kids all came home from school and told me that was a no-no as per their instructors. I guess my point being, is that a formal classroom setting type education might not be for everyone, as there is no better training than real world experience.
 
Posts: 299 | Location: Nevada | Registered: February 01, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Curly1:
The whole loan forgiveness deal is nothing more than trying to buy votes from one group and charging it to rest of us. Taking money from our pocket and giving it to them.

While I agree with Ed, Bucky and Head gamez on this one I would add that most of the problem is caused by Colleges overcharging the value for useless degrees. You can not charge $400,000 for a degree in a field that does not pay but $70,000 a year if you could find a job at all.

So I do not think the problem is the loans themselves but the colleges overcharging and if you are going to address anything that is the direction I would go.

College is important and a degree has value if there are good paying jobs in the field. If not then it is a worthless piece of paper and a waste of money.

If we allow the kids college debt to be wiped out then the value of college degrees will be worth even less. The cost will go up more and it will be another never ending entitlement that we pay for.

Several have said something about "Skin in the Game" and I agree with that. But Colleges need to have "Skin in the Game" to. We should not be paying for worthless degrees in non existent fields. As long as we pay it that will get worse to.

Colleges are not about teaching kids they are about making money. They do not care about your kids and our future.


It's a many headed monster, and you are right, the cost is out of control. How many crappy college campus's have you been to lately? Kids do a visit, and the bling is a selling point. It's hard to convince them to not judge based upon the shine.

I was thinking, since it is imperative that we get youngsters into the workforce sooner, what about a program where high school grads can go to work for a company for two years, with the promise if they make it past some time period, the company will pay a big chunk towards higher education. Follow that with a one year internship after two years or three, and a two year obligation after graduation, with another chunk paid towards education. Along with the obvious write off for the company, perhaps a productive way to spend government money would be to give some additional tax credit for the company who participates? Between the intermitant employment and the payments, a student could escape any college debt. And we could get some additional kids in the workforce early with some experience. Maybe a similar program for trade schools, and even apprenticeships. It would give an employer a known entry level employee and would give a path to employment for the young people. Maybe the cost from the schools could be negotiated even, and the programs somewhat tailored to the need.
Frankly, take the money out of other "grant" type programs. Instead of need based, it would be earned to some extent. And maybe the criteria for remaining college loans being given out, would be a reasonable evaluation of the ability to pay back the loan in a reasonable time. Allowing young people to bury themselves in school debt is not doing them any favors.


Foxtrot Juliet Bravo
 
Posts: 6418 | Location: Illinois | Registered: July 08, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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College isn't for everyone...problem is everyone doesn't know that when it's time to go to college. It's sold so hard to students and parents kids are looked at as losers if they don't go to college. If you don't check the college box in middle school you're pretty much ignored. The ones that get involved in any groups in school are sold the high salaries of college required jobs. Then the colleges sell them and justify their crazy costs.
Trade school all sounds great and then you go into the workplace. If you're in or near a city wages and benefits might be good. In a rural area it's $10 hr and no benefits. I know some teachers at the state trade school. You don't need college to teach at the trade school. They were tradesmen, why do you think they went to teach at the trade school?, because it's the best job in the trades!
 
Posts: 1474 | Location: E TN | Registered: February 13, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Eman:
College isn't for everyone...

correct BUT parents believe it is and teachers and politicians say it is to be "sucessful" meanwhile I have quite a few friends that barely have a high school diploma that went into the construction trades then started their own business and today are multi millionaires!
 
Posts: 13522 | Location: NJ | Registered: August 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Eman:
College isn't for everyone...problem is everyone doesn't know that when it's time to go to college. It's sold so hard to students and parents kids are looked at as losers if they don't go to college. If you don't check the college box in middle school you're pretty much ignored. The ones that get involved in any groups in school are sold the high salaries of college required jobs. Then the colleges sell them and justify their crazy costs.
Trade school all sounds great and then you go into the workplace. If you're in or near a city wages and benefits might be good. In a rural area it's $10 hr and no benefits. I know some teachers at the state trade school. You don't need college to teach at the trade school. They were tradesmen, why do you think they went to teach at the trade school?, because it's the best job in the trades!


I don't know what trade we are talking about here. But when I look for I&E's, (instrumentation and electrician), I can't land anyone with ANY experience for less than $30/hr. My mechanics aren't all that far behind. We are in the sticks.
All the union contractors I bring in are making in that range, or better.
Heck our general labor in packaging make better than $10/hr.

The tough one for me is finding young engineers who want to come out to the sticks to work. Even at a competitive salary. I'm losing one today. I'm sure it will take me all year to find a replacement.


Foxtrot Juliet Bravo
 
Posts: 6418 | Location: Illinois | Registered: July 08, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Bucky:

It's a many headed monster, and you are right, the cost is out of control. How many crappy college campus's have you been to lately? Kids do a visit, and the bling is a selling point. It's hard to convince them to not judge based upon the shine.

I was thinking, since it is imperative that we get youngsters into the workforce sooner, what about a program where high school grads can go to work for a company for two years, with the promise if they make it past some time period, the company will pay a big chunk towards higher education. Follow that with a one year internship after two years or three, and a two year obligation after graduation, with another chunk paid towards education. Along with the obvious write off for the company, perhaps a productive way to spend government money would be to give some additional tax credit for the company who participates? Between the intermitant employment and the payments, a student could escape any college debt. And we could get some additional kids in the workforce early with some experience. Maybe a similar program for trade schools, and even apprenticeships. It would give an employer a known entry level employee and would give a path to employment for the young people. Maybe the cost from the schools could be negotiated even, and the programs somewhat tailored to the need.
Frankly, take the money out of other "grant" type programs. Instead of need based, it would be earned to some extent. And maybe the criteria for remaining college loans being given out, would be a reasonable evaluation of the ability to pay back the loan in a reasonable time. Allowing young people to bury themselves in school debt is not doing them any favors.



Bucky, there are ways to pay for college without student loans, my son-in-law did it. And he's an engineer too.

He applied for scholarships, financial aid and grants

He also did work-study program. With the work-study program jobs must be related to your course of study, which means work-study jobs can help you network with people in your field before you even graduate. The company in which he did that program with hired him and paid a big chunk of his tuition.

You can see in his case businesses do help.
Many employers will reimburse employees for part or all of their college tuition costs, especially if the courses are related to their current field.
 
Posts: 2963 | Location: Boon Docks, FL | Registered: March 22, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Bucky:
quote:
Originally posted by Curly1:
The whole loan forgiveness deal is nothing more than trying to buy votes from one group and charging it to rest of us. Taking money from our pocket and giving it to them.

While I agree with Ed, Bucky and Head gamez
on this one I would add that most of the problem is caused by Colleges overcharging the value for useless degrees. You can not charge $400,000 for a degree in a field that does not pay but $70,000 a year if you could find a job at all.

So I do not think the problem is the loans themselves but the colleges overcharging and if you are going to address anything that is the direction I would go.

College is important and a degree has value if there are good paying jobs in the field. If not then it is a worthless piece of paper and a waste of money.

If we allow the kids college debt to be wiped out then the value of college degrees will be worth even less. The cost will go up more and it will be another never ending entitlement that we pay for.

Several have said something about "Skin in the Game" and I agree with that. But Colleges need to have "Skin in the Game" to. We should not be paying for worthless degrees in non existent fields. As long as we pay it that will get worse to.

Colleges are not about teaching kids they are about making money. They do not care about your kids and our future.


It's a many headed monster, and you are right, the cost is out of control. How many crappy college campus's have you been to lately? Kids do a visit, and the bling is a selling point. It's hard to convince them to not judge based upon the shine.

I was thinking, since it is imperative that we get youngsters into the workforce sooner, what about a program where high school grads can go to work for a company for two years, with the promise if they make it past some time period, the company will pay a big chunk towards higher education. Follow that with a one year internship after two years or three, and a two year obligation after graduation, with another chunk paid towards education. Along with the obvious write off for the company, perhaps a productive way to spend government money would be to give some additional tax credit for the company who participates? Between the intermitant employment and the payments, a student could escape any college debt. And we could get some additional kids in the workforce early with some experience. Maybe a similar program for trade schools, and even apprenticeships. It would give an employer a known entry level employee and would give a path to employment for the young people. Maybe the cost from the schools could be negotiated even, and the programs somewhat tailored to the need.
Frankly, take the money out of other "grant" type programs. Instead of need based, it would be earned to some extent. And maybe the criteria for remaining college loans being given out, would be a reasonable evaluation of the ability to pay back the loan in a reasonable time. Allowing young people to bury themselves in school debt is not doing them any favors.


We had that when we were in school. Work Experience it was called. My wife went to work for the dental office she was placed in. She went to school, did chair side and X-ray. She decided to get into the business end, she did the insurance, booking and training courses for 7 dentists and their staff.

Like you said about Mike Rowe. We need Trades back in schools because…… College is not for everyone. To succeed you need a great labor force!


Raceless in California!
 
Posts: 4525 | Location: Vacaville  | Registered: January 07, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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unless a student attends what few technical/vocational high schools are left in the country, shop classes are never coming back to high schools. Worse yet, it's the illegals from mexico and south america that are performing the "trade" work today and more so in the future.
 
Posts: 13522 | Location: NJ | Registered: August 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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It is both refreshing and encouraging to see we have people like 183N and Hotrod in our education system. It is so eat up with libs sometimes I feel like there aren't any sane people in the profession. Must be difficult for someone who uses reason and logic to survive among them.


Illegitimi non carborundum
 
Posts: 2338 | Location: OKC, OK | Registered: February 15, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I certainly see the need for trade schools, however I don't care much for the sizeable portion of my sizeable ad valorem tax that goes to fund the campus just north of me. It's the largest percentage item in my property tax.


Illegitimi non carborundum
 
Posts: 2338 | Location: OKC, OK | Registered: February 15, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Just like a house payment, when you sign on the dotted line you should have to pay.

Yes you can go bankrupt and lose the house, but the reason you can never get out of student loans is there is nothing to repossess.

Therefore, if you sign on the line and go to school for something worthless that makes you no money. Thats on you.

If they want to look into government overreach, they should say the average DR makes this much money, so you can be loaned this amount. The average liberal arts major makes this much money, so you can be loaned up to this amount. ETC
 
Posts: 664 | Location: UTD | Registered: September 25, 2019Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Low interest rate/easy loan term student loans allow colleges and universities to mark up their tuition, just as low interest rate/easy loan term mortgages has caused the price of real estate to skyrocket. Pull the plug on the near-zero interest rates and debt forgiveness, then just stand back and watch tuition costs plummet back to reality.


Mike
 
Posts: 1567 | Location: Marietta, GA | Registered: December 09, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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If they want to look into government overreach, they should say the average DR makes this much money, so you can be loaned this amount. The average liberal arts major makes this much money, so you can be loaned up to this amount. ETC


BINGO! Lending for more than a person can pay back is unethical we were told a while back. Preditory lending I think they called it.


Foxtrot Juliet Bravo
 
Posts: 6418 | Location: Illinois | Registered: July 08, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Think something is expensive, wait until you see the government start to “help pay” for it

College is now a keeping up with the Jones for social status. If a parent doesn’t send their kid to a college they look like a failure in the eyes if other parents (not all)

Kids driving nicer cars than their parents to high school so parents can give off some sort of image.
 
Posts: 805 | Location: Georgia | Registered: May 09, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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This^^^
 
Posts: 13522 | Location: NJ | Registered: August 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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My daughter went to college and got her degree in education. Then she got her masters in child psychology. She worked as a substitute teacher to finance getting her masters. Then she went into special ed where she has been for over 20 years now. No student loans. Now she is an administrator making good money.
 
Posts: 4819 | Location: Cucamonga, Ca | Registered: May 28, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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My niece went to school, got a degree and paid for it. Became an English teacher. 2 Years later she stopped teaching and took over the cafeteria making almost twice as much money. Retired a couple of years back. One of my daughters went to a private womens college (Sweet Briar) finished with a big time degree and has never to this day used it. But she has been very successful. Her schooling was on a scholarship for 2 years then we paid for the remaining 2. Maybe if they start forgiving those loans they will give me my money back.
 
Posts: 6217 | Location: everywhere | Registered: March 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Floyd Staggs:
My daughter went to college and got her degree in education. Then she got her masters in child psychology. She worked as a substitute teacher to finance getting her masters. Then she went into special ed where she has been for over 20 years now. No student loans. Now she is an administrator making good money.


I know several people that took your daughters path. Once they got to the urban schools as a substitute, they changed their career path to something totally different.

Once you get to look into the dark abyss of today's public schools, good people want no part of any of it.


Burt

I'm So Proud To Be An American And Not A Democrat...

 
Posts: 1225 | Location: Clinton Township, MI | Registered: September 16, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Once they got to the urban schools as a substitute, they changed their career path to something totally different.

That covers my daughter. She has a bachelors in education, I don't think she ever taught on her own. She now works for a monster of a software company, Salesforce... "provides customer relationship management software", and make very good money. My profession in the oil and gas business was a favorite jumping-off-point for the teaching profession.


Illegitimi non carborundum
 
Posts: 2338 | Location: OKC, OK | Registered: February 15, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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All of this talk of trade schools and teaching the trades throw money at it and it will be just like college. Going to school for something doesn't make you that, you actually have to do it. Trade schools will just be another money grab and the graduates won't be tradesmen. you can't send someone to trade school that doesn't have math skills and good reading comprehension.
Anyone remember how it used to work and where the people that worked in the trades learned from? They learned on the job, they were the FNG, the gofer. You got out of HS, graduated or not, and you had to go to work. Someone many times a friend of the family agreed to hire you as the new flunky and there was a path forward from there sometimes. You also had strong labor unions with schools.
Back then all of the boys took shop class, some liked it and others hated it. Some discovered something they liked that they had never been exposed to.
 
Posts: 1474 | Location: E TN | Registered: February 13, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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