For the record I was the only one who spoke against it at the meeting when the track decided to go to buybacks.

However, after serving for several years on the board of directors of the our local track the buyback is needed to help keep the track open.

We finally instituted half points for buybacks, once again I was not in favor of that but the racers who were crying got their way.

Buybacks are a way of life now. As one of my good friends said "Get over it, it's the way the game is played!"

quote:

Originally posted by chasracer:
1st. Round losers, re-enter, win and then re-join race in Third Round?

I think this is just an issue with nomenclature. This appears to not be a Re-Entry at all, but simply a regular buyback, with the buybacks called to the lanes separate so they are running each other during the second round rather than mixed in with Rnd 1 winners. That's not unheard of.

quote:

I can understand the comment about speeding up the event

This is a popular misconception. Re-Entry vs a straight buyback takes the same amount of time to run an event. All it does is shuffle the deck chairs. Except for the difference between a bye run here or there, Re-Entry and Buyback formats take the same total number of pairs to run the race. Re-Entry takes longer to get from 1st Rnd to 2nd Rnd, but the rest of the race goes faster. Buybacks send more cars into the later rounds, so while you may start 2nd round sooner, the rest of the race takes longer, and depending on the car count may add a round to the race.

Got it.

Certainly overlooked your point about additional cars(runs) in later rounds as far as the time element goes.

quote:

Originally posted by Holytown:
I was thinking the other day about something. If you have a weekly points series, is it possible to run two separate races.

Race 1: (Points race) No buybacks, that way he who is most consistent throughout the season will have the most points and ultimately win the championship.

Race 2: (Second chance race) Buy back fee is the entry fee, and there will be 1 buy back for this race?

With this format most likely the track gets the same money they would for first and second round buy backs, and it takes the same amount of time. However, the points series doesn't get messed up due to the way some tracks count points.

I know one of my local tracks counts you as long as you show up for the round. Therefore you are always guaranteed 3rd round points even if you don't win a round all day.

Greer Dragway runs a similar program to this

quote:

Originally posted by Eman:

Greer Dragway runs a similar program to this

I'm told that Norwalk has no b*ybacks whatsoever! Yet, they have a huge turnout and are apparently making a good profit. Can you (or anyone) imagine? Take care. Tom Worthington

I don't like buybacks and avoid races with them if at all possible. The track is just cashing in extra money and making the still-in racers have to run more rounds for no extra pay. Flat out cheating the winning racers. If the track split the money up with the racers that have to run the losing racers again MAYBE it could be fair-ish. But as is right now, it's a straight-up cheat of the winning racers. Hell, the track doesn't even chip in towards fuel and tires for the extra rounds...

Except national events I cant think of any large dollar races that do not offer buy backs. There is a track not too far from me Summit Motorsports Park that has no buy backs on a weekly program. I think they pay 1500 to win. Not much choice race for 1500 and no buy back or race for 5000-100,000,000 with buy backs all over.

quote:

Originally posted by SLICKSTER:
Except national events I cant think of any large dollar races that do not offer buy backs. There is a track not too far from me Summit Motorsports Park that has no buy backs on a weekly program. I think they pay 1500 to win. Not much choice race for 1500 and no buy back or race for 5000-100,000,000 with buy backs all over.

Then the track should adjust the entry prices. Not penalize the winning racers. At the very least the track should split it with the winning racers.

I have seen most of it having raced for over 60 years at over 60 tracks. We raced everywhere with no buy backs--none for years. This BS was dreamed up by Terry Sinke, Royce Miller, and one other person I don't remember at a supposedly big race up North that had a low turn out. And here we are today. This past weekend I raced at Piedmont and you could buy back 1st or 2nd round and it was a points race. The week before at Rockingham you could buy back 1st AND 2nd round. Neither had re-entry. I raced at a track up in the NE a while back you could buy back 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round. Then there are Muligans. Once at VMP a guy that had not won a round got back in at 8 cars. It is nuts! Most racers hate the re entry round because if you win 1st round there you set forever while that round is run. What will they dream up next?

With a slight curve...

Another thing we are seeing a lot of is the single time shot. If you have data, race a lot, etc - you know your car and it's probably not a bad situation. But I think it discourages new blood a bit or if the ride is new and the TnT sessions can be a horrible choice at some places, it can make it tough to get a handle on the car.

But the part that really bothers me is the number of people that will say oh well, I'll just use 1st round as a 2nd time shot and plan on buying back. So is the push to single time runs a $$$ plan by promoters?

I look at car count and payout as one of the things that helps me decide where I race.

I expect and want the track to make money but the payout has to be in line with the car count.

One track here did a deal where their payout was pro rated and the track keep most all the money. People quit showing up real quick. One guy I know if I remember right he spent like $125 to enter and got runner up only to get $127? Why would anyone spend that kind of money and not at least have the opportunity to make some thing in return? That did not include his tow truck fuel, alcohol or anything only Entry and Winnings. Numbers do not add up. He quit racing there until they changed.

Another local very popular track had closed up and this track went to guaranteed payout. For a few races they had more than 300 cars on the grounds and were only paying out $750 for No E and $1200? for Electronics. And for Quick classes they were paying out if I remember right $600 but were all run if they got 63 cars sign up in No E Quick we still ran for same $600. Well that did not last long people quit showing up for that junk. The track was making a killing and not paying out much and they wondered why everyone started going some where else? Hello! Track got mad at us because we quit supporting that. You can do the math and see the numbers do not add up and that only lasted a few weeks.

Back to Buybacks if you look at car count and payout tracks with buy backs tend to have a better payout. This is an opportunity to payout more and track make a little more profit. Once again I expect the track to make money or they will not be there in the Future. But I will not support a track that is bring in thousands and paying out pennies. Buybacks help all of us in my opinion assuming the track is not too greedy.

It is all about car count and payout and they need to be fair. Buybacks help that for track and racers. I do not support 3 or 4 rounds of BuyBacks that is crazy.

IMHO there should never be more than 1st Rd Buybacks, they should not earn points after a BB, and actually I really like the idea of putting all buybacks into a separate "Second Chance" race, not back into the points race. That way it is fair to the 1st Rd winners, and the track can still make the extra cash needed to stay profitable, and the guys who want to keep racing instead of loading up 1 & done after a long pull can do that too. Makes everyone happy except the guys who think they should still be allowed to try and win a points race after losing 2 or 3 times.
I had to race a guy 3 times, (twice in the final). I beat him the first two, but he had 2 mulligans, and I screwed up and bulbed it away in the "2nd Final Round". My mistake, I admit. But it seemed really dumb that he was still in and took home the Winner hardware and check after losing twice.

I know racers that won't go to certain tracks because they only have 1 round of buy backs.
Some tracks will have 2 time trials and then a dash for cash and then 2 buybacks. Racers like that as they get to make a lot of passes with their car.
Splitting the buyback has become a big deal now so it's like buying extra time trials for some.
If I remember correctly I was at an IHRA run race where they sold raffle tickets for a Mulligan to get you back in the late rounds if you lost or you could sell it to someone that was out.

Look at it from the tracks vantage point. If you're gonna do buybacks, ya can't just have one toe in the water, ya gotta go all in.

If you put a bunch of stips on buybacks, you're not making buybacks attractive.

As a track owner, you want as many cars going down the track as possible. Common sense right?

If penalize a guy for buying back, you're coming up with stips not in your best interest, in order to appease a few who are gonna heckle ya no matter if you have no buybacks, it's just their nature.

The champion is decided by winning the most rounds and or races buying back in or not buying back in..

You either have buybacks or you don't.

If your gonna have buybacks, make em attractive / worthwhile.

It's always better to have more cars going down the track than less.

quote:

Most racers hate the re entry round because if you win 1st round there you set forever while that round is run.

"Forever"? We had 309 entries on Saturday of our last event, and the re-entry round took an hour and 15 min, with dragsters involved. Our Fall Footbrake event had 391 entries, and the re-entry round took 1 hour and 5 minutes.

Points are simple. You get 10 pts for each race you enter.

You get 20 pts for each round you win.

You get 0 points for each round you lose.

You get 2 bonus pts for each final round you win.

You get 1 bonus point for each final round you lose.

Looking at a flyer right now, foot brake (maybe) $100 entry for 2 days paying $2000 to win. Money starts at 16 cars, $60. The real kicker here is must have 80 cars. Its a good deal except I don't think they have ever had 80 cars in foot brake.
I once went to a now closed track that advertised "ADDED PURSE" race. I lost a 4 cars and they had the ba!!s to hand me $10---thats right $10. No wonder they are closed.

quote:

Originally posted by ferndaleflyer:
Looking at a flyer right now, foot brake (maybe) $100 entry for 2 days paying $2000 to win. Money starts at 16 cars, $60. The real kicker here is must have 80 cars. Its a good deal except I don't think they have ever had 80 cars in foot brake.
I once went to a now closed track that advertised "ADDED PURSE" race. I lost a 4 cars and they had the ba!!s to hand me $10---thats right $10. No wonder they are closed.

That is exactly what I was saying. I understand and want the track to make a profit so they can stay in business but I also want to have a fair payout or I will not run it. And I am not doing it for the money and I do not win all the time but we have to get some return on our investment when we do win. And $10 that is a joke.
That kind of payout is exactly why they are now closed. People will not show up for that.

Why bother with time runs . Split the buy back first and second ends and move along .

quote:

Originally posted by 68TSCAMARO:
Why bother with time runs . Split the buy back first and second ends and move along .

Exactly how it is already being done on multi day events, even local ones. You got your single timerun on day one. That's all you are going to get...and then the b*yback splitting starts. To this day, I still get folks asking if I want to split the b*yback, even though I'm wearing my "no b*ybacks" t-shirt.

It's all a part of the evolution of bracket racing, but I hope everyone understands that while big buck bracket racing is thriving because of it, it's also crushing small, weekly bracket racing. Track operators know they can't have small purse events and get today's bracket racers to support it. So they instead cater to the crowd that requires NO purse...test and tune/grudge. And they are making good bank from that niche. Take care. Tom Worthington