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DRR Sportsman
Picture of Ron Gusack
posted
I turn off the track to get onto the return road and the car stops like I stepped on the brake pedal kinda hard. The engine is running but the car won't move. It acts like I'm power braking it or like it has a trans brake, which it doesn't. I cut it off and sit there for a few seconds, restart it and it moves, drive it back down the return road and as soon as I get into the pit area it stops and won't move. I shut it off, look under the car and see nothing obvious. Stick it in neutral and coast to the back of the trailer. Start it up and drive it up on the trailer too far, put it in reverse and it won't move but this is like it's in neutral. What's the diagnosis based on these symptoms.
Trans temp was 155 leaving the line and got as high as 169 before I cut it off. I didn't hear any weird noises. Footbrake car with 251 runs on trans and spragless converter and 82 runs on the type F fluid and filter.
 
Posts: 265 | Location: Maryland | Registered: January 23, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
posted Hide Post
Sounds like a broken gear set.
 
Posts: 158 | Location: Going to or returning from the chipmine. | Registered: July 01, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
posted Hide Post
It could be the gear set or maybe the rear.

Put it on jackstands and pull the drive shaft out and see if you can rotate the tires forward and backwards smoothly. If they do then it in the transmission.
 
Posts: 2583 | Location: Boon Docks, FL | Registered: March 22, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of Ron Gusack
posted Hide Post
I have no reverse so I wasn't thinking rear. I was hoping maybe the valve body or something where the trans didn't have to come out. It was a weird deal.
 
Posts: 265 | Location: Maryland | Registered: January 23, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of FTI
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Many things it could be. Without understanding your terminology it would be difficult to give a definitive answer. If you wanna call the office and ask for Greg I will see what I can figure out.

I would however check the shifter adjustment before I did any thing to make sure that there is nothing loose on the cable or the cable itself bad. What makes me think it isnt a broken planet is the neutral in reverse. If it were to neutral in reverse with a broke planet then all the teeth would be broke off the sun gear and it would sound like a box of rocks.!!

Greg


FTI Performance
Competition Converters and Racing Transmissions
"Some call it cheating, we call it the competitive edge."
www.FTIPerformance.com
info@ftiperformance.com





 
Posts: 244 | Location: Deland, FL | Registered: August 31, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of Ron Gusack
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by FTI:
Many things it could be. Without understanding your terminology it would be difficult to give a definitive answer. If you wanna call the office and ask for Greg I will see what I can figure out.

I would however check the shifter adjustment before I did any thing to make sure that there is nothing loose on the cable or the cable itself bad. What makes me think it isnt a broken planet is the neutral in reverse. If it were to neutral in reverse with a broke planet then all the teeth would be broke off the sun gear and it would sound like a box of rocks.!!

Greg

Thanks for your time Greg. Yesterday I checked to make sure the cable end went into the shift ear on the trans correctly in R, N, and 1st, and it did. I will check the shifter end to make sure nothing is loose at the end. DS ratio looks identical to runs when the trans was fresh as does fluid temp rise during the run.

There is 1 other thing that seemed strange to me.
1. in the past, I've tried to start my burnout in 2nd gear but the trans seems to be in N for a couple seconds before engaging. Sorta like a neutral start. So I went back to starting the burnout in 1st and quickly getting to 3rd before taking the rpm up to 5500.
 
Posts: 265 | Location: Maryland | Registered: January 23, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of FootbrakeJim
posted Hide Post
I was going to suggest checking fluid level, but I've never known that to cause your symptoms. I think I would try dropping the pan and if all looks normal then the valve body next, make sure all the valves move freely. Only takes 1 grain of sand (or similar sized contamination) to stick a valve partway.
Had a tiny piece of V.B. gasket flake off and stick in my 400 V.B. once, caused strange action. (raise engine speed from idle to around 1800-2000 in Park, and car would try to roll backwards a couple inches).

This message has been edited. Last edited by: FootbrakeJim,


Dan "Jim" Moore
Much too young to feel this damn old!!
 
Posts: 522 | Location: Dallas, TX  | Registered: December 05, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of Ron Gusack
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by FootbrakeJim:
I was going to suggest checking fluid level, but I've never known that to cause your symptoms. I think I would try dropping the pan and if all looks normal then the valve body next, make sure all the valves move freely. Only takes 1 grain of sand (or similar sized contamination) to stick a valve partway.
Had a tiny piece of V.B. gasket flake off and stick in my 400 V.B. once, caused strange action. (raise engine speed from idle to around 180 in Park, and car would try to roll backwards a couple inches).

I don't know how to check the valves. I've got an old VB that has pins to hold the valves in. Do I have to punch those out and if I do, how hard is it to compress the spring to get the valve back in? How hard is it to get the VB/check ball(s) back in the trans with the trans in the car?
 
Posts: 265 | Location: Maryland | Registered: January 23, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Ron Gusack:
There is 1 other thing that seemed strange to me.
1. in the past, I've tried to start my burnout in 2nd gear but the trans seems to be in N for a couple seconds before engaging. Sorta like a neutral start. So I went back to starting the burnout in 1st and quickly getting to 3rd before taking the rpm up to 5500.


Try leaving it in 3rd gear when starting / doing your burnout. I have been doing it this way for over 10 years along with many others. Never a problem.
 
Posts: 691 | Location: 53056 | Registered: December 30, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of Ron Gusack
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by markemark:
quote:
Originally posted by Ron Gusack:
There is 1 other thing that seemed strange to me.
1. in the past, I've tried to start my burnout in 2nd gear but the trans seems to be in N for a couple seconds before engaging. Sorta like a neutral start. So I went back to starting the burnout in 1st and quickly getting to 3rd before taking the rpm up to 5500.


Try leaving it in 3rd gear when starting / doing your burnout. I have been doing it this way for over 10 years along with many others. Never a problem.

I've thought about starting it in 3rd but I'm not sure I have enough power. I probably do though.
 
Posts: 265 | Location: Maryland | Registered: January 23, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post



DRR Sportsman
Picture of FootbrakeJim
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Ron Gusack:
quote:
Originally posted by FootbrakeJim:
... make sure all the valves move freely. Only takes 1 grain of sand (or similar sized contamination) to stick a valve partway.
Had a tiny piece of V.B. gasket flake off and stick in my 400 V.B. once, caused strange action. (raise engine speed from idle to around 1800-2000 in Park, and car would try to roll backwards a couple inches).

I don't know how to check the valves. I've got an old VB that has pins to hold the valves in. Do I have to punch those out and if I do, how hard is it to compress the spring to get the valve back in? How hard is it to get the VB/check ball(s) back in the trans with the trans in the car?

Ron, those roll pins push or tap out really easy, (I have a set of thin drift punches in various sizes, I think 1/8" works on all of them, 7/64 or 3/32 will definitely do the job). None of the springs are heavy duty, no special tools or compressors required. But you can actually check the travel of the valves while the VB is still in place, using a thin, sharp scribe. You are really just looking to see that they all move freely and are not stuck.
If they seem good, you might have a piece of debris in there somewhere. Dropping the VB and putting it back in is quite easy. I remove the far outer Right & Left bolts first, then thread them both back in about 3 turns. Then remove all the others, hold the body up with 1 hand and remove those last 2. Try to keep it level while lowering it, so you don't lose any balls. On reassembly, the separator plate helps to keep the balls where they belong. I use a dab of trans-jel grease or even vaseline on each ball to help hold them, but have done it plenty without.
Key question here - Do you have the install instruction sheet from the VB/Kit Mfr? (Or do you know what body or kit is in there? You can download most of them). If so, that sheet should have a map of how many balls to use, and where they go. Some, like Trans-Go, have 2 maps, one for if the trans is on a bench (bottom-up, balls go in trans passages), and another for if it is in the car, (bottom down, balls go on Sep Plate). Just keep things clean, no cloth rags, use clean paper towels.
One more note: The 2 governor tubes slide into the body horizontally, and go vertically into the trans. They are not a tight/press fit, just a slip fit. So as you begin to lower the body, take your other hand and grab/wiggle each of the tubes gently, and they should slide out of their bores in the trans. If the weight of the VB sits on them, they won't want to drop out freely, so support it while you do that. Same in reverse going back together. Do yourself a favor and snap a picture of the bottom view before you pull it, and as soon as you set it down on a clean pan/cardboard, take a pic of the top of it, with the balls still in place. And another after you remove the separator plate, so you'll have a record of how everything was, position of the valves, etc.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: FootbrakeJim,


Dan "Jim" Moore
Much too young to feel this damn old!!
 
Posts: 522 | Location: Dallas, TX  | Registered: December 05, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of Ron Gusack
posted Hide Post
The VB is whatever Trans Specialties uses. Funny thing about all this is that when I got the car up on the trailer and got out I saw a ball bearing on the left trailer runner between the front and rear tires. There's no way that could've come out of the trans, but I saved it just in case of some weirdness.

Thanks for your advice Jim. So you're saying even if the valves move a little I still might have some dirt in it? Seems shakey to rely on the plate to hold the balls in place until I get it down but I can try it. If I pull the valves out, what do you use to clean them? Do you lube them with some ATF on install? What kid of grease to hold the balls to the plate?
 
Posts: 265 | Location: Maryland | Registered: January 23, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of FootbrakeJim
posted Hide Post
Ron, that is funny about the ball bearing. Big Grin
As long as you keep the assembly fairly level as you lower it, things usually stay in place.
I'd contact TSI and ask for a copy of their VB installation sheet, (they have a "Contact Us" tech email address on their webpage). Be good to have on-hand in case things get shook up. Every mfr seems to use different # of balls and locations, my Hughes uses just 2, the Trans-Go in the Chevelle uses 5 or 6, I think the previous B&M used 7. If the valves all move freely while the VB is in place, you could try filling it back up, but the issue I had with a fragment of gasket was in a passage between the VB and trans. I saw it right away upon inspection, so I sprayed everything out with brake cleaner, (use goggles,those passages will make it ricochet everywhere). Or you could give it a solvent bath in a clean tub or pan. Then hit it with compressed air all over. I then use a mist of WD-40 to prevent any corrosion. And yes, clean ATF on all valves during reassembly. Red trans-Jel or Vaseline to hold the gaskets and balls in place.


Dan "Jim" Moore
Much too young to feel this damn old!!
 
Posts: 522 | Location: Dallas, TX  | Registered: December 05, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of FTI
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let me chime in again. is this a reverse pattern vb or forward. Lets do this first. Always check the pressure. On the drivers side by the manual valve you will see an 1/8 in pipe tap. Install a gauge here that goes to 250 psi. Lets crank it up. What we need to see is if when it acts like it is in neutral does it have pressure?. This will tell us if something is welded or bad such as a bad intermediate sprague or a vb or pump problem. Instead of guessing lets start here!!

Greg


FTI Performance
Competition Converters and Racing Transmissions
"Some call it cheating, we call it the competitive edge."
www.FTIPerformance.com
info@ftiperformance.com





 
Posts: 244 | Location: Deland, FL | Registered: August 31, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of Ron Gusack
posted Hide Post
Damn, it's a little late for that Greg cause I started to tear it apart. It's a reverse manual Trans Specialties VB. I pulled the pan off and found what looks like a #4 finish nail broken in 2 pieces and 1 part is bent 90 degrees. The other thing that doesn't seem right to me is the shift lever (on the outside of the trans) isn't attached to the manual valve. At least I think it's the manual valve.
[IMG:left] [/IMG]
Ron Gusack,
 
Posts: 265 | Location: Maryland | Registered: January 23, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
posted Hide Post
You have discovered the root of your problem.

No, that detent is not engaged with the manual valve. And there shouldn't be anyway for it to become unengaged, that I can immediately think of. Is there a nut on the manual shaft? Has it come loose and allowed the detent comb to rock over to one side? Take care. Tom Worthington


If it seems that bracket racing has gotten too expensive for you, maybe you are just doing it wrong.
 
Posts: 557 | Location: Rocky Mount, NC | Registered: December 01, 1999Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of Ron Gusack
posted Hide Post
There's the nut on the outside of the trans that holds the shift lever to the shaft that holds the semi circular thing with the cutouts for the detent roller to fit in. Can you tell that I have no idea what I'm talking about?? I can grab that shift lever, where the shift cable attaches, and pull it toward the left frame rail. So I'm assuming that the broken finish nail thing is supposed to be keeping that shaft from disengaging with the manual valve. But I can't see where it goes on my first look.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Ron Gusack,
 
Posts: 265 | Location: Maryland | Registered: January 23, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
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Now that you mention it, I believe that groove at the very inside of the manual shaft is RETAINED by a finishing nail slid into a hole in the case. The nut retains the comb to the shaft. If the nail were to come out of the hole in the case, the manual shaft might be able to move far enough to allow the comb to become disengaged from the manual valve. Good job, Ron. Smile Take care. Tom Worthington


If it seems that bracket racing has gotten too expensive for you, maybe you are just doing it wrong.
 
Posts: 557 | Location: Rocky Mount, NC | Registered: December 01, 1999Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of Ron Gusack
posted Hide Post
I think the only nut on that shaft is on the outside of the trans and holds the shift lever to the shaft. I need to look at it again. So the nail thing goes in the case somewhere, hmmm.
 
Posts: 265 | Location: Maryland | Registered: January 23, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
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Yes, there is one nut on the outside of the case (excluding you). There is also one inside the case, on the manual shaft. The one on the inside of the case tightens that detent comb to the manual shaft. However, the whole thing, shaft, comb, nut, and all are kept from sliding around by that finishing nail. With that finishing nail dislodged, the comb can (apparently) come far enough away from the manual valve to let it become disengaged.

I have tried to find better pictures and/or videos to illustrate this, but unfortunately, that manual shaft never really has to come out of the transmission, even during a complete overhaul. I personally take the shaft out of the case because it makes it easier for me to replace the manual shaft seal without any special tools. You found your problem, you just can't "see" it yet. And it is extremely good news. Take care. Tom Worthington


If it seems that bracket racing has gotten too expensive for you, maybe you are just doing it wrong.
 
Posts: 557 | Location: Rocky Mount, NC | Registered: December 01, 1999Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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