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Transmission temp or pressure
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DRR Top Comp
Picture of wideopen231
posted
Have one spot left on data recorder before need another expander. Transmission about only place I really need to get data that I am not at the moment. I can get either pressure or temp.

Which would you put first?

I say First because I will be getting more stuff Late January. Figure expander and 3 or 4 more sensors than. What I do not get now will be getting then.




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Posts: 4184 | Location: Greensboro NC | Registered: May 24, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
Picture of Big Steve
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Pressure at the servo cover.
 
Posts: 2423 | Location: Moving back to the door side | Registered: April 30, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of FTI
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If you don't have trans temp already I would do that one first, just because getting a trans too hot is a sure fire way to find yourself rebuilding a transmission. I would prioritize in this order if it was my car:

1. Trans Temp(pan)
2. Charge pressure(cooler line)
3. Line pressure(servo cover)

-Dalton


FTI Performance
Competition Converters and Racing Transmissions
"Some call it cheating, we call it the competitive edge."
www.FTIPerformance.com
info@ftiperformance.com





 
Posts: 160 | Location: Deland, FL | Registered: August 31, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
Picture of David Covey
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by FTI:
If you don't have trans temp already I would do that one first, just because getting a trans too hot is a sure fire way to find yourself rebuilding a transmission. I would prioritize in this order if it was my car:

1. Trans Temp(pan)
2. Charge pressure(cooler line)
3. Line pressure(servo cover)

-Dalton


I monitor trans Temp
Pressure at the servo and at the Reverse piston.

As I'm converter stupid (I let you guys tell me what I want)
What would monitoring charge pressure tell me?

Dave


"It is usually futile to try to talk facts and analysis to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance." -Thomas Sowell
 
Posts: 3306 | Location: American By Birth Texan By The Grace Of God  | Registered: April 29, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by FTI: because getting a trans too hot is a sure fire way to find yourself rebuilding a transmission.-Dalton


At what temp does "too hot" start?
 
Posts: 2456 | Location: 53056 | Registered: December 30, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Top Comp
Picture of Curly1
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by markemark:
quote:
Originally posted by FTI: because getting a trans too hot is a sure fire way to find yourself rebuilding a transmission.-Dalton


At what temp does "too hot" start?


This is a question for Big Steve, he has been there, done that.


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"Dunning-Kruger Effect"
-a type of Cognitive bias where people with little expertise or ability assume they have superior expertise or ability. This overestimation occurs as a result of the fact that they do not have enough knowledge to know they don't have enough knowledge.

Before you argue with someone ask yourself, "Is this person mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of a different perspective?" If not there is no point to argue.

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Posts: 4005 | Location: United States of Texas | Registered: April 02, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
Picture of Big Steve
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by David Covey:
quote:
Originally posted by FTI:
If you don't have trans temp already I would do that one first, just because getting a trans too hot is a sure fire way to find yourself rebuilding a transmission. I would prioritize in this order if it was my car:

1. Trans Temp(pan)
2. Charge pressure(cooler line)
3. Line pressure(servo cover)

-Dalton


I monitor trans Temp
Pressure at the servo and at the Reverse piston.

As I'm converter stupid (I let you guys tell me what I want)
What would monitoring charge pressure tell me?

Dave


David, I dont agree with Dalton at all, cooler line pressure is NOT converter charge pressure, it is back pressure on the discharge side of the convertor. I played with it for a season on my TD trying to alter the converter stall and slip with timed external dump valves, poppits with high temp springs to control pressure, none of it accomplished much of anything on the track and I took it all off. Cooler line pressure is only good to know if it gets to high your knocking the thrust bearing out of your crank.
Charge pressure is an internal fill pressure of the converter, turbo guys monitor this and have internal dump valves to loosen the converter to help spool up the boost on the line

What your monitoring is perfect, temp is a given but I like main pressure because it tells me what's going on hydraulicly inside the trans.

Pressure at the reverse piston is good info if you start having trans brake issues like rolling the beam.

The reason I told Wideopen to add a pressure sensor at the servo cover is because he has been having TB and other pressure related problems with his trans. If I was him first thing I would do is throw the POS aluminum VB in the recycle bin and call Marco Abruzzi and get a good cast iron VB and never look back

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Big Steve,
 
Posts: 2423 | Location: Moving back to the door side | Registered: April 30, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post



DRR S/Pro
Picture of Big Steve
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quote:
Originally posted by Curly1:
quote:
Originally posted by markemark:
quote:
Originally posted by FTI: because getting a trans too hot is a sure fire way to find yourself rebuilding a transmission.-Dalton


At what temp does "too hot" start?


This is a question for Big Steve, he has been there, done that.


I think its fluid dependent but as a rule of thumb for a everyday bracket car driving to and from the lanes 190-200* IMO is about as high as I would want to see it.
Apples and oranges but I would actually power brake by TD behind the water to get heat in the trans and would routinely see 200*plus temps, But I was using Allison Castrol Transyn fluid which is designed to take the heat. In 2022 I ran the whole season on the same fluid running those temps. But I was also towed to and from the track
 
Posts: 2423 | Location: Moving back to the door side | Registered: April 30, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Top Comp
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This is kinda related to this discussion, so I'm asking what pressure is going through the cooler lines on a glide?


.
Dave



F J B

 
Posts: 4463 | Location: Earth | Registered: February 08, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
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quote:
Originally posted by Big Steve:I think its fluid dependent but as a rule of thumb for a everyday bracket car driving to and from the lanes 190-200* IMO is about as high as I would want to see it. Apples and oranges but I would actually power brake by TD behind the water to get heat in the trans and would routinely see 200*plus temps, But I was using Allison Castrol Transyn fluid which is designed to take the heat. In 2022 I ran the whole season on the same fluid running those temps. But I was also towed to and from the track


Agreed, I like and use TES 668
 
Posts: 2456 | Location: 53056 | Registered: December 30, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of 329L
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by markemark:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Steve:I think its fluid dependent but as a rule of thumb for a everyday bracket car driving to and from the lanes 190-200* IMO is about as high as I would want to see it. Apples and oranges but I would actually power brake by TD behind the water to get heat in the trans and would routinely see 200*plus temps, But I was using Allison Castrol Transyn fluid which is designed to take the heat. In 2022 I ran the whole season on the same fluid running those temps. But I was also towed to and from the track


Agreed, I like and use TES 668


X1000

As a builder, i wanted to treat my personal trans like most people do, and not change every 50 passses like i have done forever. So far, with tes 668, the fluid still looks new, even after 100 runs. I ususally see 150-180 trans temps. In late rounds, i put a small blower fan on the trans between rounds to pull a little heat out of unit.


Jeremiah Hall
 
Posts: 705 | Location: Evansville, IN | Registered: February 24, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
Picture of CURTIS REED
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hahahaha, you fast guys have problems I don't ever have to worry about. I run the lightweight Redline fluid and change it every winter.

I figure the viscosity doesn't make a large change from cold to hot with it.



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Posts: 2939 | Location: KIEFER, OK. | Registered: August 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of 329L
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quote:


I figure the viscosity doesn't make a large change from cold to hot with it.


^^^100% correct


Jeremiah Hall
 
Posts: 705 | Location: Evansville, IN | Registered: February 24, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
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Looking at my logbook now, there’s 747 runs on the trans and 456 runs since I switched it to TES 295 in late 2020 when the converter was out for re-stall. Fluid looks red on the dip stick and still works the same at 125* or 180*. I feel guilty about not changing it, but this fluid runs in commercial vehicles for much longer intervals without problems than what I have experienced.
 
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DRR S/Pro
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quote:
Originally posted by CURTIS REED:
hahahaha, you fast guys have problems I don't ever have to worry about. I run the lightweight Redline fluid and change it every winter.

I figure the viscosity doesn't make a large change from cold to hot with it.


I change mine every winter as well Smile


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Posts: 1516 | Location: Waxahachie | Registered: July 04, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of FTI
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by markemark:
quote:
Originally posted by FTI: because getting a trans too hot is a sure fire way to find yourself rebuilding a transmission.-Dalton


At what temp does "too hot" start?


I recommend keeping them under 210 degrees. 220 as an absolute max.


FTI Performance
Competition Converters and Racing Transmissions
"Some call it cheating, we call it the competitive edge."
www.FTIPerformance.com
info@ftiperformance.com





 
Posts: 160 | Location: Deland, FL | Registered: August 31, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of FTI
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quote:
Originally posted by imakehp:
This is kinda related to this discussion, so I'm asking what pressure is going through the cooler lines on a glide?


Pressure in the cooler lines is "charge pressure" also known as "converter charge pressure". Fluid travels into the converter, goes through the converter(where most of the heat in a properly built transmission is made) and then travels through the pump/case to the cooler lines/cooler and back into the transmission.

Charge/converter pressure DOES effect how a converter behaves. The general rule of thumb of less pressure=looser converter and more pressure=tighter converter. This is popular with turbo guys because we have to play a balancing act with the converter between spool times(being loose enough) and converter efficiency down track(being tight enough). By using a dump valve and electronically manipulating charge pressure we can make playing that balancing act easier.

And yes I have seen bracket racers use it is varying situations as well. Once must also keep in mind that the dump valve is not an end all be all fix to a converter being set correctly for the car. Its best used as I described it above for turbo applications or as a fine tuning tool on the fly until the converter can be properly adjusted.

...

Sorry got a little side tracked there with the charge pressure and dumps. back to the main question; the reason I prioritize charge pressure over line pressure is logging line pressure is only going to serve as a premonition to a transmission issue that will most likely lead to some sort of service anyway. And for myself, if I'm pulling a transmission for a suspected issue, I'm going to go through the entire unit while its out to be safe. Where If I'm logging charge pressure I can see how charge pressure goes up and down. and correlate that to how consistent the car is or isn't, no different than tracking DA, humidity, wind speed/direction, track conditions or anything else that might effect the cars consistency.

to be clear this is MY preference. Others are welcome to establish a preference of their own. There is no right or wrong way. I offered my own reasoning behind my decision so that others can make their own educated decisions.

-Dalton


FTI Performance
Competition Converters and Racing Transmissions
"Some call it cheating, we call it the competitive edge."
www.FTIPerformance.com
info@ftiperformance.com





 
Posts: 160 | Location: Deland, FL | Registered: August 31, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
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I record both transmission line pressure at the servo and transmission temperature using an electrical sender mounted in the Hughes transmission pan. I have a second electrical sender mounted in the engine oil pan. Using a double pole, double throw switch that picks up engine oil temperature AND transmission fluid temperature the switch feeds into one gauge so I can toggle back and forth to see both temperatures.

I am a firm believer in recording oil and fluid temperatures as well as the transmission line pressure. What is interesting is to see how temperature effects the reaction times. After reading what Dalton (FTI) posted I may switch to reading charge pressure.

Bob
 
Posts: 3081 | Location: Lakeside, Ca | Registered: February 15, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Top Comp
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by FTI:
quote:
Originally posted by imakehp:
This is kinda related to this discussion, so I'm asking what pressure is going through the cooler lines on a glide?


Pressure in the cooler lines is "charge pressure" also known as "converter charge pressure". Fluid travels into the converter, goes through the converter(where most of the heat in a properly built transmission is made) and then travels through the pump/case to the cooler lines/cooler and back into the transmission.

Charge/converter pressure DOES effect how a converter behaves. The general rule of thumb of less pressure=looser converter and more pressure=tighter converter. This is popular with turbo guys because we have to play a balancing act with the converter between spool times(being loose enough) and converter efficiency down track(being tight enough). By using a dump valve and electronically manipulating charge pressure we can make playing that balancing act easier.

And yes I have seen bracket racers use it is varying situations as well. Once must also keep in mind that the dump valve is not an end all be all fix to a converter being set correctly for the car. Its best used as I described it above for turbo applications or as a fine tuning tool on the fly until the converter can be properly adjusted.

...

Sorry got a little side tracked there with the charge pressure and dumps. back to the main question; the reason I prioritize charge pressure over line pressure is logging line pressure is only going to serve as a premonition to a transmission issue that will most likely lead to some sort of service anyway. And for myself, if I'm pulling a transmission for a suspected issue, I'm going to go through the entire unit while its out to be safe. Where If I'm logging charge pressure I can see how charge pressure goes up and down. and correlate that to how consistent the car is or isn't, no different than tracking DA, humidity, wind speed/direction, track conditions or anything else that might effect the cars consistency.

to be clear this is MY preference. Others are welcome to establish a preference of their own. There is no right or wrong way. I offered my own reasoning behind my decision so that others can make their own educated decisions.

-Dalton



Geez.....I just wanted to know what pressure the cooler lines are subjected to... I used 250 psi rated hose to plumb my new trans cooler and wanted to make sure it was a high enough rating....


.
Dave



F J B

 
Posts: 4463 | Location: Earth | Registered: February 08, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Top Comp
Picture of Curly1
posted Hide Post
I have recorded transmission temps but do not even bother with it now as they were never too bad.

I have not monitored coolant line pressure and now I to am rather curious to know what that pressure is.


https://postimg.cc/gallery/np3zpruo/
"Dunning-Kruger Effect"
-a type of Cognitive bias where people with little expertise or ability assume they have superior expertise or ability. This overestimation occurs as a result of the fact that they do not have enough knowledge to know they don't have enough knowledge.

Before you argue with someone ask yourself, "Is this person mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of a different perspective?" If not there is no point to argue.

4X NE2 CHAMPION. 2020 TDRA NE2 Champion
 
Posts: 4005 | Location: United States of Texas | Registered: April 02, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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