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Front control arms part II, plus alignment
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DRR S/Pro
Picture of banjo
posted
Hello All,

I decided to go with the smithracecraft front control arms. I just replaced the uppers.

I got some extra caster with these, final specs were 4 degrees of positive caster, .5 degree of camber. and an 1/8 of toe. Previous specs were 1.5 degrees of positive caster, 1.5 of camber, and an 1/8 of toe. I already had a bump steer eliminators on it.

Car drives straight as an arrow down the track. I feel like I could take my hands of the steering wheel.

Only thing is when I am rolling slowly forward, the steering wheel wont center. Its hard to describe but there seems to be a quarter turn of the steering where it is tight, and to get it to center, I got to over correct to get it to come back to center. In other words, it will self return slight to the right, and I will have to turn the wheel past center, and i t will pull back to the right. Its weird. At speed, it does come back to center

I have recheck everything and I can't find anything binding or loose in the steering, is this a normal thing with the extra caster?


Also the other thing with these control arms, It looks like I lost about an inch plus of travel. Not so happy about it, looking at all the different options for upper control arms, it appears that they all loose some travel. I was looking at putting a taller ball joint on top to get some of it back, any cons to this?


Bill Simpkins
74 Nova
SBC 406
3240 pounds
Speierracing heads

60 1.27 (10/16)
1/8 6.03@111 (10/16)
Best 9.87@131 on the rev limitor 1 Feb 2013


nova

quarterpanelview

wheelie

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Posts: 1830 | Location: San Angelo | Registered: March 07, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Top Comp
Picture of Curly1
posted Hide Post
Have you tried to call them and ask?

You may try disconnecting the idler arm and steering link to see if one of those are binding.
If it does it with the steering arm disconnected then it may be in the steering box. Also check the steering box itself to make sure it is tight to the frame. Had one loosen up one time and it was terrible.

With losing that much travel did it change much on your bump steer as it goes through the range of travel? I would think less travel less bump steer but you need to check and know.


https://postimg.cc/gallery/np3zpruo/
"Dunning-Kruger Effect"
-a type of Cognitive bias where people with little expertise or ability assume they have superior expertise or ability. This overestimation occurs as a result of the fact that they do not have enough knowledge to know they don't have enough knowledge.

Before you argue with someone ask yourself, "Is this person mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of a different perspective?" If not there is no point to argue.

4X NE2 CHAMPION. 2020 TDRA NE2 Champion
 
Posts: 4060 | Location: United States of Texas | Registered: April 02, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
Picture of banjo
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Ask for what?

You see on the stock control arm has a pocket on it where a rubber bushing would be, where on the tubular, its almost even.


I can feel a little play in the wheel bearings, not sure if its enough to mess with the toe. Granted i added it a flat of toe, which seemes to help. This would make sense to me, if it doesnt have enough toe.

I am going to recheck everything today and repack/adjust the wheel bearing and set the toe to see if that makes a difference.


Any feedback on using the taller ball joints up top to give me some of the travel back?


Bill Simpkins
74 Nova
SBC 406
3240 pounds
Speierracing heads

60 1.27 (10/16)
1/8 6.03@111 (10/16)
Best 9.87@131 on the rev limitor 1 Feb 2013


nova

quarterpanelview

wheelie

FTI Converter
www.speierracingheads.com

 
Posts: 1830 | Location: San Angelo | Registered: March 07, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Elite
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The best launching cars in all of drag racing…stock and super stock use OEM control arms as does my former Chevelle…

https://youtu.be/rbKYio6OvKM

Which has been 1.28 60 foot off the footbrake, with 59% of its 3880 lbs. over/on the front tires.

Nuff said!
 
Posts: 13522 | Location: NJ | Registered: August 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Top Comp
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quote:
Originally posted by banjo:
Ask for what?

You see on the stock control arm has a pocket on it where a rubber bushing would be, where on the tubular, its almost even.


I can feel a little play in the wheel bearings, not sure if its enough to mess with the toe. Granted i added it a flat of toe, which seemes to help. This would make sense to me, if it doesnt have enough toe.

I am going to recheck everything today and repack/adjust the wheel bearing and set the toe to see if that makes a difference.


Any feedback on using the taller ball joints up top to give me some of the travel back?


I dunno, seems like you'd have to do a tall joint upper and lower for the arc - bind, camber, bump toe.

I dunno though, a deal like that I do the front end on my Nova, so I'd see what I could get away with using a caster camber gauge through experimentation.

Personally I don't think the added travel means a lot unless it lost wheel stand height in nature on the track. If it did, and I was on radials, I'd be obsessive compulsive in experimentation - Work to get my WS height back (extension travel).

Radials, I think wheel stand height matters bracket racing.
 
Posts: 9398 | Location: Madeira Beach Fl. | Registered: June 12, 2018Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of Mike Nitzsche
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The more castor you have, the more the car will want to pull to one side in a road crown situation where both front wheels have uneven load. Do both sides have the same amount of castor? typically street driven cars have .5-1 more positive castor to the right to take away a pull from road crown.
 
Posts: 1364 | Location: Lansing,Mi | Registered: March 20, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
Picture of banjo
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Car tracks straight as an arrow going down the track.

Its just the return to center at slow speeds, like when creeping up to stage.

I just got done rechecking everything. I greased everything and repacked/adjusted front bearings. Nothing stood out.

I had planned on trying to pull some caster out to see if it gets closer to that feel i am looking for.


Bill Simpkins
74 Nova
SBC 406
3240 pounds
Speierracing heads

60 1.27 (10/16)
1/8 6.03@111 (10/16)
Best 9.87@131 on the rev limitor 1 Feb 2013


nova

quarterpanelview

wheelie

FTI Converter
www.speierracingheads.com

 
Posts: 1830 | Location: San Angelo | Registered: March 07, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post



DRR Pro
Picture of Brktracer
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Did you check for excess bump steer? Is it possible that's the slow rolling issue? I assume the alignment was done with the front elevated at least some.
The wheel should center itself at any speed. Dialing in some preload in the rear can make it pull to one side. I assume you have some preload as most cars like ours want some to go straight. Also, the corner weights (front coilover spring height) can make the car pull to one side.

Does it always off center in the same direction?


Matt Ward



 
Posts: 1394 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: March 20, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
Picture of banjo
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So it seems to be better now after lubing up all the joints so it appears one of the joints or more of the joints were tight the steering was loaded while driving around. The overall steering effort seems less,

The car tracks straight going down the track, this was never an issue. Car tracks straight when the steering wheel is straight.

Try to explain a different way what was happening. If I turn left, it would self return back to within a 1/8 steering wheel turn. if I turn the steering wheel to center, it would resist and pull back to the left. To get it to center, I would have to run the wheel an 1/8 turn pass center to get it to center. It would do the exact same thing turning right.

Just got done checking the bump steer, From ride height(3/16 in) to ride height+ 2 inches(1/16 out), It would have been over a 1/4 inch to max ride height.

I raised the outer tie rod ends by .060.

Ended up with ride height(1/8 in), to right height +4 inches,(0 toe), so right an 1/8 inch change through entire suspension change.

So I am pretty happy with all of that.


Bill Simpkins
74 Nova
SBC 406
3240 pounds
Speierracing heads

60 1.27 (10/16)
1/8 6.03@111 (10/16)
Best 9.87@131 on the rev limitor 1 Feb 2013


nova

quarterpanelview

wheelie

FTI Converter
www.speierracingheads.com

 
Posts: 1830 | Location: San Angelo | Registered: March 07, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Trophy
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The added caster will make for heavy feeling steering. 0 deg caster the wheel is essentially a perfectly horizontal pivot. The added caster forces the tire downward in the direction you turn and takes weight off the side opposite of the direction you are turning. If you have completed in detail what you said in the original post, it would be easier to adjust the steering wheel to the natural wants of the alignment/caster setting. If you're a big boy you can throw off the feel of the alignment just with your body weight when trying to run a bunch of caster. I believe when the added weight is applied to one side it will force the natural centering to the opposite side as it's trying to balance the caster weight bias.

Cars with alot of caster can go into wobble coming down from a wheelstand. There was a thread here while back where I felt like this may have been the issue but I realize that's not what you're faced with.

Good Luck
 
Posts: 187 | Location: Rock><Hard Place | Registered: February 20, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Trophy
Picture of Rick!
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Stiction in the upper ball joint is the most likely cause. 4* caster isn't excessive for a manual steering car and it works wonders for high speed steering feel. From your description you've had it on an alignment rack and set things so the Left and Right side have identical numbers. Great job on bump steer to dial it in. Assuming the spindles didn't change, Ackerman should have stayed the same. The rode ends on the upper arms, at least from pix on their site show that they aren't lined so they should free up in short time. The ball joint will take longer.

FYI, the upper control arms are the least loaded of the pair. It's job in life is to manage king pin axis geometry throughout suspension travel. The spring/shock damping impart their forces on the lower control arm and the chassis and usually carry some substantial loads, more so if they smack the jounce bumpers.
 
Posts: 81 | Location: behind this screen | Registered: July 30, 2015Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Elite
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Another with OEM front control arms..

https://youtu.be/1r2EEF-hLI0

So why did the OP swap his for aftermarket? Answer…He thinks he knows better than those that build and race the best launching cars in all of drag racing. Laughing very hard
 
Posts: 13522 | Location: NJ | Registered: August 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Trophy
Picture of Luvtruck
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by 1320racer:
Another with OEM front control arms..

https://youtu.be/1r2EEF-hLI0

So why did the OP swap his for aftermarket? Answer…He thinks he knows better than those that build and race the best launching cars in all of drag racing. Laughing very hard


After watching your video I now know why Dallas Cherry wasn't at Coastal Plains racing this weekend....he was the Camaro behind yours.....lol
 
Posts: 242 | Location: Vanceboro NC | Registered: February 24, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of TomR
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Sorry, but there is nothing "stock" in stock eliminator or Super Stock, lol. Those are the highest priced cars to build in bracket racing, especially if they are fast.


72 Nova "Hooptie"
 
Posts: 748 | Location: Hanover, MD | Registered: June 20, 2016Reply With QuoteReport This Post



DRR Top Comp
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Remember back in the good old days when words actually had meanings?

A guy would say I'm buying a new car.

Or

I'm building a new car if he was building it.
 
Posts: 9398 | Location: Madeira Beach Fl. | Registered: June 12, 2018Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Elite
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Reyer:
Sorry, but there is nothing "stock" in stock eliminator or Super Stock

Wrong the front control arms are OEM
 
Posts: 13522 | Location: NJ | Registered: August 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of TomR
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by 1320racer:
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Reyer:
Sorry, but there is nothing "stock" in stock eliminator or Super Stock

Wrong the front control arms are OEM


Goes to show you really don't know what you are talking about. Most are oem metal but heavily modified with special bushings and ball joints. Some are even cut and welded to appear stock but aren't even close. But, keep spouting your bs lol. The rest of us know the truth.


72 Nova "Hooptie"
 
Posts: 748 | Location: Hanover, MD | Registered: June 20, 2016Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Elite
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Goes to show you that you assume you know about things you don’t have a clue about but keep spouting your bs talking out of your ass. Meanwhile the facts and the truth are my front control arms on my former chevelle are not only stock and unmodified like thousands of others competing in stock eliminator but they are the original control arms that were bolted onto the frame on the assembly line in 1968.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: 1320racer,
 
Posts: 13522 | Location: NJ | Registered: August 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Top Comp
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Did that chevelle compete in B/SA or ?


.
Dave



F J B

 
Posts: 4480 | Location: Earth | Registered: February 08, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
Picture of Brktracer
posted Hide Post
Good follow up on the bump steer Bill. My car also went toe out at max extension and it was more than a handful. It's good to find that and correct it now.


Matt Ward



 
Posts: 1394 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: March 20, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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