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Picture of Curly1
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Rietow:
What fuel is used in a Pro Stocker?

NHRA Pro Stock is the highest level of push rod engine technology on the planet.

Efficient engines run better and make more power on gasoline, I've experienced it with 23 sbc engines I've built.

My 23 degree 427 sbc would make more power on gasoline.

I don't mind anyone believing different.

Experience varies.


That is a very good question, why do Pro
Stock run Gas?
Well because the rules were set up to make it look like a factory style car and run on gas like factory cars. The Big 3 wanted a class they could Win on Sunday, sell on Monday and look like show room cars. Even though now days there is little that is factory if any thing. When Pro Stock first started it was factory built, home modified cars on gas.

If rules allowed alcohol I bet they would very quickly develop the cams and what ever needed to make it work right and we would all be better off than before. If they were allowed to run alcohol or even Nitro I bet everyone of them would.

Even in the few short years we had Pro Stock Trucks we gained lots of small block technology and that helps us all. If Pro Stock cars were allowed to run alcohol ET's would go down and Cam / Heads / induction technology would get better.


https://postimg.cc/gallery/np3zpruo/
"Dunning-Kruger Effect"
-a type of Cognitive bias where people with little expertise or ability assume they have superior expertise or ability. This overestimation occurs as a result of the fact that they do not have enough knowledge to know they don't have enough knowledge.

Before you argue with someone ask yourself, "Is this person mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of a different perspective?" If not there is no point to argue.

4X NE2 CHAMPION. 2020 TDRA NE2 Champion
 
Posts: 4062 | Location: United States of Texas | Registered: April 02, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Top Comp
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Curly1:
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Rietow:
What fuel is used in a Pro Stocker?

NHRA Pro Stock is the highest level of push rod engine technology on the planet.

Efficient engines run better and make more power on gasoline, I've experienced it with 23 sbc engines I've built.

My 23 degree 427 sbc would make more power on gasoline.

I don't mind anyone believing different.

Experience varies.


That is a very good question, why do Pro
Stock run Gas?
Well because the rules were set up to make it look like a factory style car and run on gas like factory cars. The Big 3 wanted a class they could Win on Sunday, sell on Monday and look like show room cars. Even though now days there is little that is factory if any thing. When Pro Stock first started it was factory built, home modified cars on gas.

If rules allowed alcohol I bet they would very quickly develop the cams and what ever needed to make it work right and we would all be better off than before. If they were allowed to run alcohol or even Nitro I bet everyone of them would.

Even in the few short years we had Pro Stock Trucks we gained lots of small block technology and that helps us all. If Pro Stock cars were allowed to run alcohol ET's would go down and Cam / Heads / induction technology would get better.


Ok, that's easy to prove. What current pushrod engine on methanol do you have in mind which makes more HP per cubic inch, than a 500 cubic inch NHRA Pro Stock engine on gasoline?
 
Posts: 9398 | Location: Madeira Beach Fl. | Registered: June 12, 2018Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
Picture of SCDIV1
posted Hide Post
BTU Values for fuels and chemicals
Fuel Type BTU's
2 Cycle Oil 138,000 BTU / Gallon
#2 Diesel Fuel (40 Cetane) 133,000 BTU / Gallon
#2 Diesel Fuel (45 Cetane) 129,000 BTU / Gallon
#1 Diesel Fuel (53 Cetane) 126,000 BTU / Gallon
Conventional gasoline 116,090 BTU / Gallon
Propane 84,250 BTU / Gallon
Ethanol 76,330 BTU / Gallon
Methanol 57,250 BTU / Gallon
Mineral Spirits 19,000 BTU / Pound
Xylene
18,651 BTU / Pound

Benzene 18,184 BTU / Pound
Acetylene 21,502 BTU / Pound
Naphthalene 17,303 BTU / Pound
Naptha 15,000 BTU / Pound

Every fuel has different properties......advantages and disadvantages and requirements to BURN it efficiently....because after all it is an internal combustion engine

Methanol has some real good advantages but also some disadvantages but if an engine is optimized to run Methanol I think it will make more power per cube than race gas....

The right head and chamber and cam and mechanical injection......

I've run gas carb, methanol carb and Ron's injection......

The Ron's Injection was by far the sharpest running from a seat of the pants feel but not really much if any quicker/faster than a gas carb....

No comparison on throttle response or low gear feel......but again not a big difference on the time slip..

I never changed timing from methanol to gas or camshaft.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: SCDIV1,
 
Posts: 2733 | Location: Where ever I am, I'm here and it's me | Registered: March 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Top Comp
Picture of Curly1
posted Hide Post
And Nitro is even less at only 47,500 BTU per gallon yet it makes more power.
Similar with Methanol it has less BTU per gallon or pound yet since it uses much more overall power is up.

Pro Stock motors have had about 50 years of fine tuning and design for Gas trying to get every little bit of power out of it. I believe if they were allowed to run alcohol they would quickly design heads, cams and intakes that produce way more power than equivalent gas motors.


https://postimg.cc/gallery/np3zpruo/
"Dunning-Kruger Effect"
-a type of Cognitive bias where people with little expertise or ability assume they have superior expertise or ability. This overestimation occurs as a result of the fact that they do not have enough knowledge to know they don't have enough knowledge.

Before you argue with someone ask yourself, "Is this person mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of a different perspective?" If not there is no point to argue.

4X NE2 CHAMPION. 2020 TDRA NE2 Champion
 
Posts: 4062 | Location: United States of Texas | Registered: April 02, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Top Comp
posted Hide Post
If methanol could make more power than gasoline n/a pushrod engine, a high end 410 methanol burning sprint car engine would be closer on HP, per cubic inch to a gasoline burning NHRA Pro Stock engine.

No? Confused

They've been around awhile.
 
Posts: 9398 | Location: Madeira Beach Fl. | Registered: June 12, 2018Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
Picture of Alaskaracer
posted Hide Post
Gas may have more btu per pound than methanol, but you can't look at it like that....If you look at at stoich, methanol wins over gas for btu, and its the btu's that make the power...


410" sprint car engines make between about 900-1000 horse right now....that's roughly 2.4hp per cube...500" pro stock make about 1450, or about 2.9 hp per cube. Not much difference, but you also have to realize the builds are very different...sprint engines have to accelerate off the corners...drag engines don't. There IS A DIFFERENCE in head, intake, and cam....try building both under the same guidelines, I'm betting there won't be that much difference....


Mark Goulette
Owner/Driver of the Livin' The Dream Racing dragster
www.livinthedreamracing.com
"Speed kills but it's better than going slow!"
Authorized Amsoil Retailer
 
Posts: 1503 | Location: Back home in Alaska! | Registered: February 13, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
Picture of Alaskaracer
posted Hide Post
Food for thought:

https://www.topspeedparts.com/...ews/fuel-comparision


Mark Goulette
Owner/Driver of the Livin' The Dream Racing dragster
www.livinthedreamracing.com
"Speed kills but it's better than going slow!"
Authorized Amsoil Retailer
 
Posts: 1503 | Location: Back home in Alaska! | Registered: February 13, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post



DRR Top Comp
Picture of Curly1
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Rietow:
If methanol could make more power than gasoline n/a pushrod engine, a high end 410 methanol burning sprint car engine would be closer on HP, per cubic inch to a gasoline burning NHRA Pro Stock engine.

No? Confused

They've been around awhile.


The Sprint car motors are designed to run non stop for 30 or 40 laps each race and last for many races. And they run several heat races before the main event. Pro Stock motors are built to get every bit of power for short duration and maybe 6 passes for each event. Plus they can change motors between rounds if they had to. So they are built to run right on the edge.
You are not talking apples to apples here.


https://postimg.cc/gallery/np3zpruo/
"Dunning-Kruger Effect"
-a type of Cognitive bias where people with little expertise or ability assume they have superior expertise or ability. This overestimation occurs as a result of the fact that they do not have enough knowledge to know they don't have enough knowledge.

Before you argue with someone ask yourself, "Is this person mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of a different perspective?" If not there is no point to argue.

4X NE2 CHAMPION. 2020 TDRA NE2 Champion
 
Posts: 4062 | Location: United States of Texas | Registered: April 02, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Top Comp
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Curly1:
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Rietow:
If methanol could make more power than gasoline n/a pushrod engine, a high end 410 methanol burning sprint car engine would be closer on HP, per cubic inch to a gasoline burning NHRA Pro Stock engine.

No? Confused

They've been around awhile.


The Sprint car motors are designed to run non stop for 30 or 40 laps each race and last for many races. And they run several heat races before the main event. Pro Stock motors are built to get every bit of power for short duration and maybe 6 passes for each event. Plus they can change motors between rounds if they had to. So they are built to run right on the edge.
You are not talking apples to apples here.


No, actually I'm talking the closest HP per cubic inch methanol burning pushrod engine to a gasoline burning NHRA Pro stock pushrod engine.

I asked you for proof of your feeling, you didn't answer, so I helped you out.

I am curious what gives you the feeling, methanol makes more power than gasoline n/a, without anything other than a feeling?

I could say I have a feeling pigs can fly and birds could survive under water in the ocean, if they had too.

Right?
 
Posts: 9398 | Location: Madeira Beach Fl. | Registered: June 12, 2018Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
Picture of Alaskaracer
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Rietow:
No, actually I'm talking the closest HP per cubic inch methanol burning pushrod engine to a gasoline burning NHRA Pro stock pushrod engine.

I asked you for proof of your feeling, you didn't answer, so I helped you out.

I am curious what gives you the feeling, methanol makes more power than gasoline n/a, without anything other than a feeling?

I could say I have a feeling pigs can fly and birds could survive under water in the ocean, if they had too.

Right?


Mikey, you can't compare a Pro Stock engine to a sprint car engine. Two VERY different builds. Where they make power is very different, head requirements are different, intake requirements are different, cam requirements are different. They aren't that far apart as is in hp per cube, but comparing a circle track engine to a drag engine is really not a comparison....like for like...it'd be like comparing a street engine to an f1.

And check out the links I posted to Sonny's Racing Engines.....they pretty much squash your argument. I've called and talked to them about that too....it's very enlightening....maybe you should as well....


Mark Goulette
Owner/Driver of the Livin' The Dream Racing dragster
www.livinthedreamracing.com
"Speed kills but it's better than going slow!"
Authorized Amsoil Retailer
 
Posts: 1503 | Location: Back home in Alaska! | Registered: February 13, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
Picture of SCDIV1
posted Hide Post
Sprint car engines evolved over the years and from what I recall are only limited on cubic inches

Once upon a time when the W.O.O. series was just getting started they ran some Big Blocks and 500 cubes was common. Stack Injected on methanol.

The shop I worked at did a few and it was insane trying to dyno those things with what we had for a dyno, never forget that not so fun period

Eventually the 410 S.B. engine was the limit

They slowly advanced and one of the huge improvements was down nozzles.....they gained a ton of power....

Heads got better and I don't know what they are running today but if you applied the same type advancements to Pro Stock heads and intakes etc they'd be making more power than gas and get rid of the 10,500 rev limits..........

MY opinion only of course....
 
Posts: 2733 | Location: Where ever I am, I'm here and it's me | Registered: March 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
Picture of Alaskaracer
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by SCDIV1:
Sprint car engines evolved over the years and from what I recall are only limited on cubic inches

Once upon a time when the W.O.O. series was just getting started they ran some Big Blocks and 500 cubes was common. Stack Injected on methanol.

The shop I worked at did a few and it was insane trying to dyno those things with what we had for a dyno, never forget that not so fun period

Eventually the 410 S.B. engine was the limit

They slowly advanced and one of the huge improvements was down nozzles.....they gained a ton of power....

Heads got better and I don't know what they are running today but if you applied the same type advancements to Pro Stock heads and intakes etc they'd be making more power than gas and get rid of the 10,500 rev limits..........

MY opinion only of course....



A friend of mine and former roommate, Matt Hasara, worked for MadCap here, then Book, now runs his own shop up in Michigan. While he was staying here, he did a 360" build for a customer, alky injected, all the bells and whistles....that engine made well over 800hp and had some room to spare. Pretty nasty piece. Sprint engines are weird though, he drove the oil pump off the front of the cam, and some stuff was driven off the back of the engine as well. This was about 2015-2016. Heads were worked over pretty good, but nothing exotic. He's one of the people that told me to move my nozzles higher in the ports too. I'm doing that with the new stuff. On one engine, they found 60 more hp just with that move alone....and yes, on alky....I'm interested to see how it does, because I'd be able to do an A to B test with mine when I get it back together.


Mark Goulette
Owner/Driver of the Livin' The Dream Racing dragster
www.livinthedreamracing.com
"Speed kills but it's better than going slow!"
Authorized Amsoil Retailer
 
Posts: 1503 | Location: Back home in Alaska! | Registered: February 13, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
Picture of SCDIV1
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Me and the dyno operator worked together, raced together and were good friends going back to the 1970's

He has worked for a number of big name shops including Shafiroff and has worked at Pro Motor for many years in N.C.

This was a cool video and he is in another I saw recently......testing an old Lake Speed NASCAR Ford engine

I'm sure they primarily are doing gasoline burners but have probably dabbled with some metahnol burning engines too

He told me they were supposed to do all the engines for Tony Stewarts star driver round track series but it went to Ilmor instead

One year he said he dyno'ed 350 engines......

Almost Everyone I worked with ended up in N.C. and NASCAR country.......Jobs were plentiful and good......Not nearly as good these days....by a long shot...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6fTZnVtMNY&t=10s
 
Posts: 2733 | Location: Where ever I am, I'm here and it's me | Registered: March 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Top Comp
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Coloradoracer:
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Rietow:
No, actually I'm talking the closest HP per cubic inch methanol burning pushrod engine to a gasoline burning NHRA Pro stock pushrod engine.

I asked you for proof of your feeling, you didn't answer, so I helped you out.

I am curious what gives you the feeling, methanol makes more power than gasoline n/a, without anything other than a feeling?

I could say I have a feeling pigs can fly and birds could survive under water in the ocean, if they had too.

Right?


Mikey, you can't compare a Pro Stock engine to a sprint car engine. Two VERY different builds. Where they make power is very different, head requirements are different, intake requirements are different, cam requirements are different. They aren't that far apart as is in hp per cube, but comparing a circle track engine to a drag engine is really not a comparison....like for like...it'd be like comparing a street engine to an f1.

And check out the links I posted to Sonny's Racing Engines.....they pretty much squash your argument. I've called and talked to them about that too....it's very enlightening....maybe you should as well....


I'm not sure how, pro stock engine on gasoline makes 2.8 hp per cubic inch.

The Sonny leanard 777 cubic inch engines on methanol make 2.3 HP per cubic inch.
 
Posts: 9398 | Location: Madeira Beach Fl. | Registered: June 12, 2018Reply With QuoteReport This Post



DRR Pro
Picture of Alaskaracer
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Rietow:
I'm not sure how, pro stock engine on gasoline makes 2.8 hp per cubic inch.

The Sonny leanard 777 cubic inch engines on methanol make 2.3 HP per cubic inch.


Mikey Mikey Mikey, did you not look at the two? Both engines similar in size...both engines running same head, but with different porting. Also different cams and compression....and the alky version, the smaller of the two, smokes the gas burner....What you didn't get is that they are two similar engines, with few differences. You're comparing a small block, rules limited engine designed to run hundreds of laps, on and off the throttle, against a maxed out, short run, wide open, purpose built engine. Everything on a pro stock engine is purpose built for one thing, and one thing only, 1/4 mile drag racing, heads up, running a SPEC fuel as required by the rules....everything about that engine is designed not only around the purpose but around the fuel....EVERYTHING. Sprint car engines are built around the type of racing they do and the demands of it, and to conform to the rules of the class....NOT the fuel....Even combustion chamber shape/design comes into play....yes, pro stock has engine rules too, but if you look at the rules for them, there is a lot of room to play....not so much in sprints...


Mark Goulette
Owner/Driver of the Livin' The Dream Racing dragster
www.livinthedreamracing.com
"Speed kills but it's better than going slow!"
Authorized Amsoil Retailer
 
Posts: 1503 | Location: Back home in Alaska! | Registered: February 13, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
Picture of Alaskaracer
posted Hide Post
One other thing I forgot to mention. The larger the engine, the less efficient it becomes. That alone answered your question....


Mark Goulette
Owner/Driver of the Livin' The Dream Racing dragster
www.livinthedreamracing.com
"Speed kills but it's better than going slow!"
Authorized Amsoil Retailer
 
Posts: 1503 | Location: Back home in Alaska! | Registered: February 13, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of wideopen231
posted Hide Post
I will say mevery engine I have seen switched to alky was faster than gas if tuned out for performance.Now I have never played with these high dollar heads and maybe that is why.I find it very hard to believe the chamber design will not run with alky,hell anything possible I guess.

Will say that with alky I have found most engine really nliked bigger ports.easoning has always been an available area for air with dbl the fuel.One thing I have questioned o0n the A/fuel car. With 28 GPM to motor, you would tink no room for oxygen other than all that is in the fuel itself.




America home of free. Brought to you by 2nd amendment.
 
Posts: 4236 | Location: Greensboro NC | Registered: May 24, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Curly1
posted Hide Post
I am saying I bet with some changes and optimizing for alcohol they could get much more than the currently do on gas. You keep forgetting the Pro Stock motors have had 50 years to get optimum tune.


https://postimg.cc/gallery/np3zpruo/
"Dunning-Kruger Effect"
-a type of Cognitive bias where people with little expertise or ability assume they have superior expertise or ability. This overestimation occurs as a result of the fact that they do not have enough knowledge to know they don't have enough knowledge.

Before you argue with someone ask yourself, "Is this person mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of a different perspective?" If not there is no point to argue.

4X NE2 CHAMPION. 2020 TDRA NE2 Champion
 
Posts: 4062 | Location: United States of Texas | Registered: April 02, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
Picture of Alaskaracer
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Curly1:
I am saying I bet with some changes and optimizing for alcohol they could get much more than the currently do on gas. You keep forgetting the Pro Stock motors have had 50 years to get optimum tune.


Yep, and alky has just started becoming a fuel of choice for many racers across the country. As it's used more and more, it will also become more developed....


Mark Goulette
Owner/Driver of the Livin' The Dream Racing dragster
www.livinthedreamracing.com
"Speed kills but it's better than going slow!"
Authorized Amsoil Retailer
 
Posts: 1503 | Location: Back home in Alaska! | Registered: February 13, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
Picture of 00 DEAD ON
posted Hide Post
My 598 BBC with Profiler 12* heads @ 2020 lbs has been 4.54 on alky terminator with Big Bubbas and 430 gears. I wasn’t trying to start anything just trying to figure out what others have found with timing and 12* heads on alky. Looks like not many run alky with these heads. For what my motor is I’m really happy with the performance.
Thanks everyone


Brian Mollison
2013 American Dragster
2020 Sumerduck Dragway VA Top ET Champion
2017 Sumerduck Top ET & SSS Track Champion
2017 MAC Top ET Track Champion
2009 Sumerduck Dragway Va Top ET & IHRA SSS Track Champion
2008 IHRA Division 1 Top ET Bracket Final Runner-up
2007 Colonial Beach Dragway Top ET Track Champion
 
Posts: 1029 | Location: Stafford, Virginia | Registered: October 03, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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