 |
 |
 |
|
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
|
Bracket Talk Bracket Talk Forum Tech Talk - by Abruzzi New to Diesel, some Power, DPF & DEF questions...Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| New to Diesel, some Power, DPF & DEF questions... | Login/Join |
DRR Sportsman |
No matter what brand you have- Ford, Dodge or GM. If it has the "smokeless" emission system on it, please share your experiences, good/bad. I recently bought a used, "new to me" diesel truck for towing, and it is also my new daily. My knowledge of these things is limited to just 750 miles of driving, 2 fill-ups of fuel, the 2 months of research I've done (in limited free time), and some info I have gathered on this site and a few others. My initial target for model year was 2010-2013, but after reading about some of the issues all of the "Big 3" manufacturers had in adapting to the new-at-the-time Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF) emission systems, and subsequent warranty, recall, and failure problems, I decided to stretch my planned cost limit a bit, to get past the 2011 model year, as the data seems to indicate a lot of good progress was made by 2012. Just as I was going to pull the trigger on a 2013, (which had just fell off GM warranty, from a private party), a really surprising deal fell into my lap on a '15, out West in a small rural Texas town, with high miles for a 2.5 year old at 65K, but still has 35K miles of powertrain warranty left. Bought it from the dealer who originally sold it, GM certified pre-owned, which adds 12 month/12K of bumper-to-bumper coverage. That was worth the very slight higher cost to me. Hopefully if anything major is going to happen, it will before then. OK, so far, so good. Have pulled a short ways with it, and the torque these things have is very impressive. As a commuter vehicle, it has done well, (80-100 miles per day, 60% highway miles, 40% city). Average combined commuter MPG is 19.0, and that is both measured by filling to cap, driving a week, filling again at same pump, nearly same temp and time of day, and dividing miles by gallons to the 10th; and as calculated by the on-board info system, which appears to be very accurate in that regard. Best so far, was an 18 mile stretch of hwy with cruise set steady at 71 MPH, it computed 24.5 MPG. Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF) indicator only says "OK", no idea if it is full, empty, or in-between. But I guess it will let me know when I need some.  Alright, now the biggest question/concern I have right now, is the "Regeneration", (what GM calls it), of the DPF. It involves the use of a "9th injector" of diesel fuel, and apparently it sprays the fuel into the DPF, (have seen it referred to on a diesel website as a "blowtorch")  thereby cleaning the particulate filter of accumulated soot and carbon. Supposedly GM tried to make this process nearly "invisible" to the driver. And it sounds like on average, it normally occurs about once per tankful? I am pretty sure I experienced that on Sunday evening and Monday morning - The idle speed, which is usually very steady around 625 RPM, suddenly was up around 800. I made a fairly short trip, just to fuel it up for the week. Next morning, same deal at start up, and during the first 10 miles or so of my commute, which is similar to rural/suburban, then several miles through a city, then about 30 miles on highway. After exiting the hwy, idle was still high for about 2 miles, then suddenly back to normal idle for the past 3 days. Can someone confirm if that (Regen) is what it was doing? Because I can tell you the fuel mileage took a beating during that stretch - the onboard calculator even showed that 50 mile average had dropped to about 16. Afterward, average MPG immediately went back up to 19, so I assume it was that regen process burning through a good bunch of fuel. What I really want to know, is what happens when you are towing heavy, and it does the regen? Does it kill a bunch of power? Or just drop your already lower MPG into the toilet? I am getting ready for the first long tow, (500 miles), this weekend. With some long uphill sections. Kind of wishing the driver had some control over that regen process, like maybe a "postpone for xxx miles" option...  But if it doesn't rob a bunch of power, I guess I won't care. Will try to NOT monitor the "Average MPG last 50 miles" indicator if it happens heading North on Saturday.  With annual emissions/safety inspections here in TX, deleting the system is not an option. Guessing the Cummins and Powerstroke trucks have the same/similar cleaning process? Jump on in here, how does it work on your trucks? Thanks, as always, for any info you can share.This message has been edited. Last edited by: FootbrakeJim, Dan "Jim" Moore Much too young to feel this damn old!! | ||
|
DRR Sportsman |
I have it in my 2013 Chevy 2500. I get about 8000 miles out of a 5 gallon tank of DEF. I don't tow with it often, but never noticed any power loss when I was towing. My truck will tell me when to refill DEF. Normally with around 800 miles to go. Mark Yeager | |||
|
| DRR Top Comp |
My experience with regen is that if you’re towing and working the engine pretty hard then it will never regen. Keep in mind that I have an older truck but since I bought it in 07 it has regenerated exactly one time. Pretty much the truck doesn’t leave town unless it’s hooked to the trailer, so it’s working and consequently it doesn’t need to clean itself. Clowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right. Here I am....... | |||
|
| DRR Sportsman |
Thanks for the replies. Verne, you answered my next question, which was going to be: Is the regeneration a regularly-programmed event, based on miles, or some other calculated interval, or is it an "only as needed" function, determined by sensors and data collection? I was kind of hoping that fairly frequent towing, and lots of highway driving at 70-80 mph would keep things somewhat clean in that DPF, but then part of me figured that "burning xxxx gallons of diesel oil will produce xxx pounds of soot and carbon", and the filter would need cleaning no matter how you drive. One thing that amazes me, is this thing does not smell like a diesel. At all. You can stand at the tailpipe while it is running, and take a deep whiff, and smell absolutely nothing. Really strange! Dan "Jim" Moore Much too young to feel this damn old!! | |||
|
| DRR Top Comp |
Jim, I would think it would have to be sensor controlled. Reason being, I have a friend who was an oil field electrician. He asked me how often my truck had been in the shop. I told him never. He said his truck was a piece of crap and that it spent more time at the dealership than he did driving it. I asked him if he was idling the truck all day and the answer was yes. The poor old truck was clogged up and was constantly regenerating. Mine on the other hand never did. He was pissed cause that’s why he bought a diesel so it could sit and idle. He finally traded it off. Clowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right. Here I am....... | |||
|
| DRR Sportsman |
Idle time and short trips are not good for the D.P.F due to lack of heat. I like to let mine idle for a few minutes when getting back from the track to let the turbo cool , About the time it takes to unhook the trailer. | |||
|
| DRR Pro |
If you bought a Gm make sure you use Stanadyne fuel additive. | |||
|
| DRR Trophy |
Jim, Welcome to the Duramax fam. I bought my 2011 about a year ago after a ton of research. The LML engine, which both of our trucks have is a great power plant. The weak link is the Bosch CP4 injector pump. Which is why the last guy said to use Stanadyne. It help boost the lubricity of the fuel. People also install aftermarket lift pumps on the newer diesels of all big 3 brands. These trucks don't come with a lift pump, and rely on the injection pump to 'suck' fuel from the tank. It is believed that any type of aeration in the system can cause one of these pumps to fail. I don't personally have a lift pump, but will probably put one on before 100k miles. People also swap the problematic CP4 pump for the older, but more reliable CP3 pump out of an LMM duramax. There are a ton of kits online to do this. I try to get #2 diesel when possible over other biodiesel blends. From what I've read, the lubricity is a little better. The 'loss of power' that you are concerned about is not an issue with a 2011 and newer duramax, because they stopped using the engines 8 injectors to inject extra unburnt fuel into the exhaust. Prior to the 9th injector addition of 2011, they would simply adjust the fueling in one or more of the existing injectors. This cause a ton of issues with cylinder wall lubrication, piston ring life, and oil dilution. It will, however, kill gas mileage during the time of regeneration. The DPF 'level' is measured through the computer. And the more idling time will affect the amount of regens due to the fuel mixture and the temperature of the exhaust directly outside the combustion chamber. With an aftermarket diagnostic system such as ez-lynk, you can view the level of the dpf and anticipate a regen cycle. I don't think the OEM diagnostic interface will allow you to view this, but it is monitored through the computer. | |||
|
| DRR Sportsman |
Thanks for all the great input, fellas. I have now put just under 3,000 miles on the truck, and still enjoying the heck out of it. Especially towing. Ended up pulling 1100 miles that weekend, and all I can say, is unless diesel goes to $10/gallon, I am not going back to gas, as long as I have a trailer to pull. Why didn't you guys tell us what we've been missing out on?  This truck "only" has the 765 Lb/Ft engine, so I can imagine what all the new trucks are like, with over 900 Lb/Ft of torque. Between the engine, and the Allison trans, it is a completely different towing experience. I had the Cruise Control set at 80 going up through the Arbuckle Mountains of OK, never a downshift nor a converter unlock. 2 fingers on the wheel... Amazing how stable and smooth these things are built now. (I remember thinking the same thing about my 2002 HD, compared to my older 3/4T, which was like riding a bucking horse). OK, so the DPF regen has not happened again since that first week, and I blame myself for it. We were having unusually cold weather for N. TX, and I was letting it warm up for a few minutes each morning, because I figured 10 quarts of oil is gonna take a long time to reach operating temp, and on a cold start drive-off, the oil pressure gauge on this thing hits 90 PSI at about 1200 RPM. A bit more throttle/rpm, and it is pushing up toward the 120 PSI peg, which seems very uncomfortable for me. THe manual says nothing about warmups, or cold driving, other than telling you the trans is programmed to delay upshifts when cold, to heat up the cabin more quickly. Which is why the oil pressure goes up so high. Do y'all just hop in and go? I have always been a believer in driving stuff easy when it is cold. I honestly believe that and keeping clean, high-quality oil in them are the 2 most important things you can do to make engines live way beyond 200K miles. I quit doing the warm-up thing, and have not had another regen in over 2,000 miles. Still no DPF low warning. But I did change the oil, because I believe the dealer simply reset the oil life monitor, and didn't change it. Said 99% when I bought it, and when I checked it on a white paper towel, it was looking somewhat dark, enough to where I was not about to leave it in there for another 7,000 miles or whatever. I put Rotella 15W/40 in it, and the pressure went up a bit, both at speed, and at hot idle, (it had been right on the 30 PSI mark, now it is a little above that). 75 PSI at hot cruise on highway, 80 mph, 1900 RPM. Makes me wonder if they had a lighter weight oil or synthetic in it before, because my fuel mileage has dropped exactly 1 MPG since the oil change, now right about 18.0 What oil do you guys use in your diesels? I did not use the T-6 synthetic, or T-5 blend, just the regular T-4 dinosaur lube. Dan "Jim" Moore Much too young to feel this damn old!! | |||
|
DRR Pro |
Jim, I bought my 2500HD Duramax in December. Have about 700 miles on it so far. Have not pulled a thing besides me either. One day Spring will arrive here and we will be able to race. Can't wait to see/feel 910lb/ft pulling my trailer compared to the 2001 6.0 liter. | |||
|
DRR Sportsman |
You really want to see high expenses? Google DPF/SCR on the big trucks. Especially out of warranty. It will break the working man financially.Word of caution, never,never a regen in a grassy area period.Don't know the temps on the small grocery geters but on the big ones, temps get a high as 1000-1200F. (Fire Time) if its in a grassy area. Another gray area i always run into is "Bad Quality" of DEF fluid. Happens more often than you can believe. Have to flush out the system. Add fresh DEF. Bad DEF will throw a code.This message has been edited. Last edited by: TD3550, | |||
|
| DRR Sportsman |
Mike, I guarantee the first long grade you pull your trailer up, will put a smile on your face.  TD, I can imagine! One of the pickups I looked at, the Carfax showed the DPF replaced TWICE. The salesman said it was because the old rancher just putted around slowly for hours, looking at his cows, and never got the thing out on the highway. I looked up the cost, $1400 + labor. That helped make my decision to get something that still had some warranty coverage. My bro in-law just told me last weekend, his 2017 threw a Bad Def Quality warning. He was not aware that the stuff has a shelf life, and can go bad in 6 months. He had stocked up on about 8 boxes when he saw a good sale last year. So he bought 1 box of fresh, and poured it in, next day the message cleared. I've had guys tell me to not buy it until the Low Def message shows up, because you still have 700-1,000 miles left before it limits your speed to 65 MPH. So I have not purchased any yet. Dan "Jim" Moore Much too young to feel this damn old!! | |||
|
| DRR Trophy |
My understanding with regen is that it's not to occur when the vehicle is hooked to a trailer by means of the trailer brake switch. I've had my Ram 2500 since 2014 and have yet to experience a regen. If it has occurred, I haven't noticed it. I lay into mine fairly regularly and am not afraid to get into boost when towing. Wouldn't be surprised if driving these things hard meant regens could be avoided, as I don't think they occur on a specified schedule. | |||
|
DRR Pro |
jim if you worry about warm up ,plug in and keep hot.i have not been a fan of idling any trucks,even diesel.the turbo cooling deal is left over from old trucks and truck drivers.when close to destination slow down and let egts drop it will be good enough.there are millions that drive them like gas motors honesty is the best policy,insanity is a better deffense 1.036, 6.16@ 224 | |||
|
| DRR Sportsman |
What is bothersome, at least in my mind, is that tractors are now (and have been since about 2014) rolling off the assembly lines with DPF and SCR. I did put my race car's EGT probe in the end of a tailpipe of a 39hp tractor; and while it's in regen, I saw a peak of 1280°. That's before the venturi-cooled tailpipe extension but indicates what kind of heat comes out. And on a TRACTOR....that gets used in dry grass all the time (hay fields). Yes you can turn off the regen but you better not leave it turned off for very long as the DPF will plug, and then it goes to the dealer to have the DPF cleaned or replaced. Also on a tractor, that gets used a couple times a day for a couple hours at the most, the DEF sits in the tank for a while. In this part of the country, DEF can go bad in about a month due to the heat. How much def gets siphoned out of a tank and then the tank refilled? Does DEF have any sort of environmental impact if it's dumped on the ground? On the SCR stuff, total nightmare on tractors. Had a couple in last year for repairs. One was a 100hp Kubota. Is used mostly for hay cutting, stacking, and then in winter/spring for taking bales to the cattle. Anyway the tractor it replaced was a 85hp Kubota that was roughly 15 years old, so no DPF and no SCR. Well the owner is older and was starting his typical day, check the fuel and DEF level, noticed that the fuel was below 1/4 tank. So he runs into town, grabs a few 5 gal cans of diesel, runs back to the farm and dumps it into the tank. Problem was, it went into the DEF tank. To properly repair this type deal, you get to replace the tank assembly with pump, heater and sensors, the lines, the DEF injector, the DPF, the catalyzer assembly (basically the entire muffler). On his particular tractor, the repairs were just shy of $18,000 including labor. And it ain't only tractors, either. Any diesel engine over 25hp, so that includes LAWN MOWERS of all things. No DEF on them until they're I think 75hp+ but even a higher end lawn mower will have a DPF, and I've sold-and serviced-a few of those too. Mostly lawn services. Backhoes. Excavators. Anything more than 25hp and running diesel fuel. Price increases for everyone because of it too. Oh but it don't stop there....when I have to replace an engine over 30hp, I'm required to drill a 1/2 diameter hole through the cylinder block, then document it's destruction, so that engine can never be rebuilt again. They won't send me a new engine until the destruction is documented, either. So now I have an extra .5-.8 hour labor just in the documentation and fighting with those who are in charge of whether or not the destruction is done correctly. Not counting the cost of a drill bit every couple fo engines....Nice of the tree huggers to bring this stuff about....costs are spread to everyone whether you own a diesel or not. Now think about that the next time you go to the grocery store and notice the high price of...beef, basically anything. This whole diesel emissions garbage is one reason why-and it don't stop at the farm, it's UPS trucks, Wal-Mart trucks, Fedex trucks, basically anything with a diesel engine built in 2008 or newer and all of those diesels are hauling your food from point A to point B, so they pass the extra cost on to the retailer, who passes it on to the consumer. In other words, you and I. UPS is having some of their local trucks repowered with gas engines when the old diesels die. One local driver has a T444E powered truck with a little over a million miles on it, but it's real weak and they are looking to repower it with a V8 gas engine. Maintenance guys say it's cheaper in the long run due to the repair costs of the newer diesel engines and all the stuff that they have to run on them to meet emission standards where the gas burners use a little more fuel but are cheaper to maintain and repair. My old F250 (7.3) has some miles on it but when it's time to replace it, I won't buy another diesel. Yeah I might get passed going up a hill but quite frankly I don't care about that stuff anymore. | |||
|
| DRR Trophy |
I have an 08 GMC and here is what I have come to learn since I have a monitor. When it regens it does raise the idle and egts stay about 300 degrees higher to create the controlled burn. It also seems to lower boost during and I am assuming that is to be easier on the motor however, I have not noticed a power difference even while towing my heavy toy hauler. Mine will regen every time the grams of soot reach 40-44 so it is triggered through a sensor. I do have the 9th injector and do not have to run DEF so I can't speak as to how long between fill ups. | |||
|
| DRR Pro |
All this crap is ruining the diesel engine industry. What sense does it make to run the burnt exhaust back through a close tolerance engine with a fancy air cleaner on it? And spray cow piss in the tailpipe so it will pass emissions? I have several pieces of farm equipment with it and it's a constant pain in the arse. And of course now the feds are cracking down on the sale of programmers and delete kits, which was the only way to make these engines run as they were intended.  JB | |||
|
| DRR Sportsman |
I could not agree more than your statement. The system has flaws and will never be perfect.Just purchasing the diagnostic software for the big trucks are off the charts. On an average yearly regen /issue count.It's over a 100 units broke down on the road. Unit is in derate. 25 MPH tops I could not tell you how many calls i get a year for poor DEF quality/doser valve/Def tank heaters/frozen def lines. Aside from that, how many times i have to go on a call where the driver put diesel in the def tank. (Smaller units) is beside me, but they manage. Like Paccar Engines, You have to use "Their" software only.Price is off the charts for most shops. The renewals (yearly) are deadly. I can recall when these systems hit the market. Tractors were dropping like fly's and the wrecker companies were laughing all the way to the bank. A lot of them had to be re flashed. Bad flash. The Ag industry is no different. The dealers have the farmers over the barrel when out of warranty. For an diagnostic system expect cost as high as $6-7K. Plus your yearly renewals . I have heard horror tail on trucks being in the dealer for weeks on end and to no avail, when picked up and put on some minor miles>> Back to the dealer.Ever talk to a truck driver, ask him hows the regen system doing on your truck. Every year they make more and more corrections. Add more and more components. It is virtually impossible to keep up the year to year technology changes were as your working on the prior years problems.In the next life it won't be this job lol..... As per your question on the regen. no difference while doing city driving with the big trucks. The P&D units are terrible for regens. Stop and go. Engine can't reach proper operating temps to regen. Higher engine load/more heat. I couldn't tell you how many units i have come across in the years where as the emissions have been severely altered. Won't go further than that.. The can't send it in to the dealer for repairs Dealer will not touch it.This message has been edited. Last edited by: TD3550, | |||
|
| DRR Pro |
mine is a chevy 2015,i dont like putting piss water in it,i dont like the regen crap that goes on,i dont even pay attention to it anymore.it pulls fine runs good,fuel milage not so good. honesty is the best policy,insanity is a better deffense 1.036, 6.16@ 224 | |||
|
| DRR Pro |
So driving my 2017 yesterday, almost 1000 miles on it, and I see the warning about the DEF range on the dash. Think it said 995 miles or so. I have towed once with it so far, about 10 miles. Is this from not really putting it under any load? | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 2 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
Bracket Talk Bracket Talk Forum Tech Talk - by Abruzzi New to Diesel, some Power, DPF & DEF questions...
 |
 |
 |
 |
