When I drove a dragster, I was hard on brake parts. My car owner couldn't understand why I went thru so many rotors and pads compared to his other 2 cars. Lamb, Strange and Wilwood, didn't matter.
I squeeze the brake while holding the throttle wide open. Never got into whooping the gas at the finish line like some do.
We tore up some rotors and pads back then.
72 Nova "Hooptie"
December 21, 2018, 08:43 AM
seabass
quote:
Originally posted by WHOMPWHOMP: I run on very very short tracks running 4.30 if I run ferodos I would end up in the woods...that’s why they last...Carbon Lorraine FTW for pads...
I love the way this pad stages but they won't last a season on my car... and I do pull the chute, maybe not enough.. hell I lift 98% of the time anyway
J.R. Baxter
""Fathom the hypocrisy of a Government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured ..but not everyone must prove they are a citizen."
2025 Miller Rolla Competition Engines ProCharger Hoosier Tires Abruzzi
December 21, 2018, 09:08 AM
Curly1
[QUOTE]Originally posted by seabass:
I love the way this pad stages but they won't last a season on my car... and I do pull the chute, maybe not enough.. hell I lift 98% of the time anyway[/QUOTE
230+ MPH is kind of hard on any brakes. Just saying.
https://postimg.cc/gallery/np3zpruo/ "Dunning-Kruger Effect" -a type of Cognitive bias where people with little expertise or ability assume they have superior expertise or ability. This overestimation occurs as a result of the fact that they do not have enough knowledge to know they don't have enough knowledge.
Before you argue with someone ask yourself, "Is this person mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of a different perspective?" If not there is no point to argue.
4X NE2 CHAMPION. 2020 TDRA NE2 Champion
December 21, 2018, 09:42 AM
MightyBirdF145
Hey Rich, which pads are you running?
The point made earlier about the bench grinder is spot on. The only difference I see is its not the line pressure, our cars and every Race Tech car have plenty of line pressure and pedal ratio.
Having said that....I'm no fan of the strange stuff, my next car will have Williams pieces end to end which is the real fix to these problems. (like the Firebird does, btw pads and rotors last FOREVER on that tank) The pad composition against the strange rotors makes a huge difference in the life of the rotor. I will only use the "soft" (forgiving) black organic pad, which is what I believe all Race Tech cars come with by design (unless you ask for the "hard" aggressive pads). Going 180+ i was getting 50-60 runs out of the 1 piece strange rotors. Switched to the 2 piece Strange rotors and am now getting 100-110 runs out of a set. I could easily make that 200+ runs if I wanted to run the "hard" metallic pads that we run on many of the other cars that Scott and I have looked after over the years. The metallic pad is more aggressive and grabs the rotor faster, stops much faster and doesn't generate as much heat. The black pads generate way more heat because they cant hold the rotor exactly like what was described in the bench grinder analogy.
It comes down to how fast do you want to stop versus how often you want to change rotors? I'm not interested in stopping that fast for obvious reasons. If you don't drive aggressively at the finish line then the metallic pads will get you more life out of your strange rotors. I like to be able to be more aggressive and know that the pads are going to be more forgiving when the adrenaline of competition is pumping. I'll change rotors every 110 runs and be happy that I have to try really hard to make my car skid.
Merry Christmas!
Just my $0.02.
Shawn
December 21, 2018, 10:27 AM
"The Bender"
quote:
Originally posted by S/S Dart: SCDIV1...Just sharing some information I've gathered from a Hawk Mfg. engineer and from a tech rep from Mark Williams...Line pressure is really essential to Drag Race vehicle stopping safely and the Rotors and Pads living a long and happy life ! The analogy that illustrates how low or inadequate line pressure builds excessive heat and kills rotors is best explained by thinking about a bench grinder and what happens if take two pieces of metal and use them like caliper pads to try and stop the spinning bench grinder...If you have sufficient clamping pressure you will quickly stop the grinding wheel with little heat build up ...If you have minimal clamping pressure the "metal pads" will only serve to ride against the wheel generating a lot of heat and not stopping the wheel..The heat generated in stopping with a brake rotor and brake pads determines braking efficiency and brake component service life... A drag race vehicle is unique in racing as the shutdown area is limited ,and the first hit on the brakes needs to be effective to not only slow the car safely and quickly but to preserve rotors and pads.. The Nark Williams site does a great job of explaining what I am trying to..lol one area that is overlooked when selecting calipers is bridging strength or anti flex in the caliper design. If you have adequate line pressure which is determined by pedal ratio and master cyl bore size you will need strong calipers!!! otherwise they will flex and any flex instanly kills pedal feel and stopping power,,, pedal ratio in a dragster is tricky... We have an undercover car and the line pressure was way low and kurt was aware... In fact his pedal set up could not generate 1100 psi on the first hit of the pedal which is the MW recommendation. I worked hard to achieve the right ratio ,line pressure and stroke volume which translates into excellent pedal "feel" and safe and efficient stopping .We race T/D 2050# ..185 1/8 218 1/4 mile and this is the 4th season on the pads and longer on the rotors.. MW calipers and rotors..Hawk HB 237 .480 Black Pads,,,, The Hawk engineer stressed that the pad needs to perform well when cold almost like a stock OEM pad..as drag cars dont have time to heat up a metallic type compound pad...If your building heat up tp make that pad work then your running out of race track shutdown... just my experience... my Son is the driver and I am not ever going to compromise his safety....Line pressure is a very critical part of the brake package....you would be surprised at how many chassis builders cannot tell you what the line pressure is at the caliper on the race cars they build....
Sorry, but the bench grinder thing doesn't hold water with me. Brakes work by converting the kinetic energy of the moving racecar into heat. Doesn't matter how quickly or slowly you stop the car, still have convert that energy into heat. If you have say 1400# of available brake pressure there is no way you can use that without locking up the brakes. You regulate the brake pressure with your foot on the pedal as required to slow down. Now if you were only able to generate say 500#, that might be an issue. The composition of the brake pads have everything to do with braking performance.
For instance, at my auto repair business we were using brand x brake pads exclusively for several years and were having issues with customers coming back in 6 months with warped rotors. We have switched brake pad brands and now no longer have that problem.
272" Spitzer 540 Chevy The Blower Shop XR1 FTI XPM Series Converter FTI Level 6 Powerglide 3.69@199 .916 60'
2017 Bradenton Heads Up Madness Open Outlaw Champ
2018 PDRA T/D #5 2019 PDRA T/D #2
2020 Retired From T/D Competition....
2020 Bradenton NMCA Hemi Shootout Winner
2021 getting back into bracket racing with a Gen3 Hemi powered 87 Cutlass.
December 21, 2018, 11:40 AM
SCDIV1
quote:
Originally posted by MightyBirdF145: Hey Rich, which pads are you running?
The point made earlier about the bench grinder is spot on. The only difference I see is its not the line pressure, our cars and every Race Tech car have plenty of line pressure and pedal ratio.
Having said that....I'm no fan of the strange stuff, my next car will have Williams pieces end to end which is the real fix to these problems. (like the Firebird does, btw pads and rotors last FOREVER on that tank) The pad composition against the strange rotors makes a huge difference in the life of the rotor. I will only use the "soft" (forgiving) black organic pad, which is what I believe all Race Tech cars come with by design (unless you ask for the "hard" aggressive pads). Going 180+ i was getting 50-60 runs out of the 1 piece strange rotors. Switched to the 2 piece Strange rotors and am now getting 100-110 runs out of a set. I could easily make that 200+ runs if I wanted to run the "hard" metallic pads that we run on many of the other cars that Scott and I have looked after over the years. The metallic pad is more aggressive and grabs the rotor faster, stops much faster and doesn't generate as much heat. The black pads generate way more heat because they cant hold the rotor exactly like what was described in the bench grinder analogy.
It comes down to how fast do you want to stop versus how often you want to change rotors? I'm not interested in stopping that fast for obvious reasons. If you don't drive aggressively at the finish line then the metallic pads will get you more life out of your strange rotors. I like to be able to be more aggressive and know that the pads are going to be more forgiving when the adrenaline of competition is pumping. I'll change rotors every 110 runs and be happy that I have to try really hard to make my car skid.
Merry Christmas!
Just my $0.02.
Shawn
Hi Shawn.....In my old car at 165mph I often weighed anchor and had Aerospace brakes, gator pads and maybe Hawk Dr 97...Those brakes only bit me once.....hat to rotor bolts loosened up and tore up a caliper mount. Red Loctite and they never hurt a thing. Slower speeds, lighter car....
I've used various pads on the Racetech…...and both Strange one piece rotors and Wilwood 2 piece.....
Wilwood Polymatric E pads.....soft, not aggressive....used them 2 -3 sets on the Strange rotors....Rotors were not real bad last set I junked, like 1 set I took off a few years ago...Lettuce Shredders!!!
Went to Wilwood rotors and Hawk DR-97 pads......stops more aggressively.....but not super aggressive
I Never weigh anchor hard at 175...Not looking to wad myself up for lunch money and a Wally....I got both....LOL...That Just is not worth it as you know....
I think last year I won 1 round dropping to high 150's from mid 170s.....That's about as aggressive as I'm getting....
Sure there's rounds I could have won and should have won at the stripe using the brakes more aggressively, but that's racin as the saying goes...
Shawn Thanks for the good info and I know your advice is fact....
Merry Christmas to you and your family.
December 21, 2018, 12:11 PM
SCDIV1
quote:
The composition of the brake pads have everything to do with braking performance.
And the rotors material and design...
Slots are NFG....
I think the companies that make the brakes we use design them knowing if they made a heavy cast iron rotor nobody would buy their kits....
Lightweight, stops good at the expense of long life.....and lets be honest they get to sell parts over and over again....
Everbody knows I work on Onan generators a high percentage of the time....
Their modern machines are fine but routinely need repairs and parts probably more so than the end users would like .....
Cummins-Onan doesn't mind the business.....and neither do I.....!!!This message has been edited. Last edited by: SCDIV1,
December 21, 2018, 05:03 PM
markemark
quote:
Originally posted by SCDIV1: And the rotors material and design...
Slots are NFG....
Slots, Holes or both? Slots don’t go through the rotor.
December 21, 2018, 07:42 PM
SCDIV1
Slots as in Strange rotors was my point on that. Holes are fine. Wilwood 2 piece rotors had no way for the steel rotor to move from expansion or contraction on the hat. The MW does. Wilwoods are drilled. Drilled rotors on road vehicles caused problems for me. Rust never sleeps around here...
December 21, 2018, 09:11 PM
OhiomafiaWireGuy
Hand a down the best brakes on the market are The Brake Man or TBM! Life time warranty on rotors. Folks, there’s a reason why the are double the price, but you get what you pay for!!!
Dykes & Strippers Custom Wiring Auto Meter Authorized Dealer CleanYourTrailer.com Horse Power Sales USADragRacingChat.com Fab Shop Race Flow Development
245" Harry Clack 399 inches of Horse Power Sales Power 1.031, 2.978, 4.640 at 147.47
December 21, 2018, 09:22 PM
Curly1
quote:
Originally posted by OhiomafiaWireGuy: Hand a down the best brakes on the market are The Brake Man or TBM! Life time warranty on rotors. Folks, there’s a reason why the are double the price, but you get what you pay for!!!
I looked into the TBM brakes and they were about same price as Mark Williams if I remember right.
https://postimg.cc/gallery/np3zpruo/ "Dunning-Kruger Effect" -a type of Cognitive bias where people with little expertise or ability assume they have superior expertise or ability. This overestimation occurs as a result of the fact that they do not have enough knowledge to know they don't have enough knowledge.
Before you argue with someone ask yourself, "Is this person mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of a different perspective?" If not there is no point to argue.
4X NE2 CHAMPION. 2020 TDRA NE2 Champion
December 21, 2018, 09:25 PM
BarneyB
IMO Moser Stainless brakes are the way to solve these problems y’all talk about
WiredTwoWin race car wiring
December 21, 2018, 11:27 PM
Bruce Williams
The Lamb rotors are made of cast iron which will not bell/warp like the plate steel rotors will. They will eventually heat crack, so the brakes need to be checked on a regular basis. When I stepped up to my blower motor I was consistently hitting 199-200 and was stopping without the chute. The lamb brakes stopped me without a problem, although I wore the pads and rotors out in a couple of months.LOL Rich I hope the MW take care of your brake problems.
Bruce Lee
Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want.
December 22, 2018, 12:21 AM
T/D6591
quote:
Originally posted by seabass: I’ve killed 4different brands of rotors, usually about a season if I’m lucky, I’m not sure why either....I put a rp sensor on the brakes and can get 1400 psi so I feel I have plenty of pressure.... I’m not sure what causes it unless I just use the brakes to hard or to much
Ok I will say it,I heard that sand bagging will cause this.
December 22, 2018, 12:56 PM
OhiomafiaWireGuy
quote:
Originally posted by Bruce Williams: The Lamb rotors are made of cast iron which will not bell/warp like the plate steel rotors will. They will eventually heat crack, so the brakes need to be checked on a regular basis. When I stepped up to my blower motor I was consistently hitting 199-200 and was stopping without the chute. The lamb brakes stopped me without a problem, although I wore the pads and rotors out in a couple of months.LOL Rich I hope the MW take care of your brake problems.
It’s not only the material used but the shape and design of the rotor and how it dissipates the heat that keeps them from warping. TBM started building rotors in the shape they are for this very reason in the sprint car world and carried it over to the drag race applications. Those guys are stopping 3000lb from 200mph (in the 1/8) and putting lifetime warranties on them.
Dykes & Strippers Custom Wiring Auto Meter Authorized Dealer CleanYourTrailer.com Horse Power Sales USADragRacingChat.com Fab Shop Race Flow Development
245" Harry Clack 399 inches of Horse Power Sales Power 1.031, 2.978, 4.640 at 147.47
December 22, 2018, 01:32 PM
SCDIV1
Let’s add a ring and pinion to this project. Pulled center section to fix a leak and check it and pinion gear is shot. Visible cracks, bad. Rear had tight spots turning it by hand. Would have come apart soon, very soon.
December 22, 2018, 09:22 PM
Curly1
So if heat is the real issue or problem has anyone tried NACA ducts with cooling air directed to rotors? Seems like this may be a simple solution to bring the temps down to a safer level.
https://postimg.cc/gallery/np3zpruo/ "Dunning-Kruger Effect" -a type of Cognitive bias where people with little expertise or ability assume they have superior expertise or ability. This overestimation occurs as a result of the fact that they do not have enough knowledge to know they don't have enough knowledge.
Before you argue with someone ask yourself, "Is this person mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of a different perspective?" If not there is no point to argue.
4X NE2 CHAMPION. 2020 TDRA NE2 Champion
December 23, 2018, 02:42 PM
Lenny5160
quote:
Originally posted by Curly1: So if heat is the real issue or problem has anyone tried NACA ducts with cooling air directed to rotors? Seems like this may be a simple solution to bring the temps down to a safer level.
I'm going to take a F1-inspired approach. Have 2 of my kids stationed at the turnoff with leaf blowers.
Tony Leonard
December 23, 2018, 03:46 PM
Curly1
In all seriousness it may not take much to make a noticeable difference. There is probably a higher pressure air area right in front of the rear tires and a NACA duct could direct some cooling air right to rotor. With the back spacing and especially with beadlocks it may be a relatively dead air space there. We know heat is the reason for the problems why not try it?
Some people have infrared temp sensors back there for tire and track temp readings they could easily be moved to check before and after rotor temps. You are laughing but it may cool it enough to resolve most of the issues.
In my opinion if they are getting hot enough to crack it is more than an irritation having to change pads and rotors if they break it is a safety issue. Does not cost much in time money or weight so why not try it?
https://postimg.cc/gallery/np3zpruo/ "Dunning-Kruger Effect" -a type of Cognitive bias where people with little expertise or ability assume they have superior expertise or ability. This overestimation occurs as a result of the fact that they do not have enough knowledge to know they don't have enough knowledge.
Before you argue with someone ask yourself, "Is this person mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of a different perspective?" If not there is no point to argue.
4X NE2 CHAMPION. 2020 TDRA NE2 Champion
December 29, 2018, 07:42 AM
Bob Nichols
Ran Wilwood for years had no problems running low 7's. When I dropped into the 6's brakes became a whole other issue.
Like others that used a 2 piece brake/hat combo, I wound up warping the rotors and then had lots of problems with the bolts on the hats.
Wound up converting to a floating rotor held in with the snap ring. I run a few tracks with very short shutdown and brakes have been sufficient. But not without some trial and terror. I found a pad that worked GREAT with the original 2 piece. The pads supplied with the floating rotors just did not work for me. It took two attempts to get the right ones, but am very pleased with the results now.
It is the combination of the rotor material, the pads, and line pressure that make for a system that stops and lasts.
