DragRaceResults.Com    Bracket Talk    Bracket Talk Forum  Hop To Forum Categories  Tech Talk - by Abruzzi    Timing on Methanol compared to gas??
Page 1 2 
Go
New
Find
Notify
Tools
Reply
  
Timing on Methanol compared to gas??
 Login/Join
 
DRR S/Pro
Picture of Eman
posted
Instead of sidetracking the other thread I wan't to have a separate discussion about this.
Since methanol burns cooler and slower than gas and is resistant to detonation why the theory of less timing than gas? It would seem that you could run more timing with methanol and light it off sooner without the detonation.
 
Posts: 1580 | Location: E TN | Registered: February 13, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
posted Hide Post
Your thinking is correct. It boils down to, what are your goals for your engine program.


Fellow racer and servant of the Lord of Lords
John 14:6
"Creekside Racing Ministry"
MFI system, ProCharger Non-intercooled [6.02 @ 229 or 3.91/660' soft tune and killing power above 6K rpm]
Ron Clevenger
 
Posts: 1006 | Location: Visalia, Calif. 93292 | Registered: November 23, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Top Comp
posted Hide Post
I want my car to start every time. I ran 34 on alky and also run that on gas. We’re bracket racing.


Clowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right. Here I am.......
 
Posts: 5338 | Location: stuck in the middle with you! | Registered: March 11, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Top Comp
Picture of Curly1
posted Hide Post
I have spent a lot of time and money on the dyno and it liked 28* timing best on my motor 454 SBC with AFR 235 heads and Enderle injection on alcohol. My bearings always look good.


https://postimg.cc/gallery/np3zpruo/
"Dunning-Kruger Effect"
-a type of Cognitive bias where people with little expertise or ability assume they have superior expertise or ability. This overestimation occurs as a result of the fact that they do not have enough knowledge to know they don't have enough knowledge.

Before you argue with someone ask yourself, "Is this person mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of a different perspective?" If not there is no point to argue.

4X NE2 CHAMPION. 2020 TDRA NE2 Champion
 
Posts: 4310 | Location: United States of Texas | Registered: April 02, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
posted Hide Post
I know from personal experience with 23-degree style SBC engines, less timing is faster with Methanol. I have not experimented with the lowest/fastest setting but for sure 32 degrees is faster than 36, 38, 40 degrees.


Larry Woodfin



 
Posts: 1877 | Location: Kilgore TX | Registered: March 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
posted Hide Post
So there ya go EMAN. Your thinking is correct, but I always say listen to your motor and give it want it wants. People tune there motors for different reason. And if your paying the bills it's exactly what you should do. Also lots of old wives tales out there that have a life of there own. The best thing is to learn how to read plugs, so you can tune the motor and read what it's telling you. The Dyno will get you in the ball park, but from there the motor typically on the track will want more timing and less fuel....Have fun racing.


Fellow racer and servant of the Lord of Lords
John 14:6
"Creekside Racing Ministry"
MFI system, ProCharger Non-intercooled [6.02 @ 229 or 3.91/660' soft tune and killing power above 6K rpm]
Ron Clevenger
 
Posts: 1006 | Location: Visalia, Calif. 93292 | Registered: November 23, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
posted Hide Post
Here’s what I did this year changing from Enderle to Rons injectors with mfi in my new engine. I installed an EGT sensor in one of the exhaust tubes to make sure the starting point wasn’t too lean. After I had this temp reading that was acceptable, I removed the EGT and have been moving timing and pill size to try and achieve the most consistent tune up.
 
Posts: 2692 | Location: 53056 | Registered: December 30, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post



DRR Sportsman
Picture of sr4440
posted Hide Post
your statement of "methanol burns cooler and slower" is correct when you are using the same A/F ratio. Methanol has fewer BTU's per lb. But when you are using stoichiometric air-fuel ratios, Methanol will have more BTU's per lb of air and burn faster.

I ran about a dozen engines on my dyno both gas and methanol. All of them made more power on methanol and required less timing to do it.
(the largest was a 605)



Joe

This message has been edited. Last edited by: sr4440,


Without data, you’re just another guy with an opinion.
 
Posts: 1313 | Location: TEXAS | Registered: February 07, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of FootbrakeJim
posted Hide Post
EMan, I don't know the scientific answer to your question, (other than to say what Joe & Ron said seems to make sense).
FWIW, my results match what Verne (Cashflow)said. I ran 36* when I was on Gas, based on timeslip MPH performance and plug readings.
I switched to alky in 2014, found that new plugs were difficult for me to read. But MPH seemed to favor 34*. A year later, on an open test day, I performed an 'A-B-C-D-A' test on my setup. (13:1 BBC 468, 1050 Dominator slightly fat). Began at 34*, tried 36*, 38*, 32*, and back to 34* with less than a third of a MPH difference, (0.31 MPH spread), and less than .02 ET differential. DA was really steady that day, my log shows spread of 151 feet.
So I figured why push the timing for no net gain? It seemed to start easiest at 34*, that setting also had the best 60' by a hair, and best MPH, so that is where I have kept it.
Oh, one note that may be important - Steel heads. I know on gas you can run a couple more degrees of timing with aluminum heads, don't know if that applies on alky.


Dan "Jim" Moore
Much too young to feel this damn old!!
 
Posts: 1110 | Location: Farmersville, TX  | Registered: December 05, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
posted Hide Post
Just moving timing is only part of the combination. Fuel AFR has to be part of it. Reading the plugs is a big part of getting what the engine wants. For most bracket racers they are more interested in consistency and that is understandable. For me, I can't stand leaving power laying on the table. My own curse.


Fellow racer and servant of the Lord of Lords
John 14:6
"Creekside Racing Ministry"
MFI system, ProCharger Non-intercooled [6.02 @ 229 or 3.91/660' soft tune and killing power above 6K rpm]
Ron Clevenger
 
Posts: 1006 | Location: Visalia, Calif. 93292 | Registered: November 23, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
Picture of Mike Beck
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Ron C.:
Just moving timing is only part of the combination. Fuel AFR has to be part of it. Reading the plugs is a big part of getting what the engine wants. For most bracket racers they are more interested in consistency and that is understandable. For me, I can't stand leaving power laying on the table. My own curse.


Then you wouldn't approve of me using a restrictor plate to slow my car down from 9.4's to 10.0's.... Wink
 
Posts: 1444 | Location: South River, NJ | Registered: June 19, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Trophy
posted Hide Post
I tried gas at 33* then at 36* with the thinking gas likes more timing, and it slowed up almost a whole 02. On alky I went from 33* to 35* and it picked up almost 01 and I gained a solid 50 conv stall and about .5 mph, so it must of made more power. Those were this year with the 632.

When I had these heads on the 582 it liked 36* over 34*, about 01 faster. So I think there's some truth to this.

However when we ran gas way back, didn't have a lot of compression 454 and a 555. the 454 liked 44* and the 555 was 38 or 40*. So cubic inch and compression may have something to do with it as well, like some have said, its the whole combination.
 
Posts: 102 | Location: Ohio | Registered: December 19, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Elite
posted Hide Post
This is one of those deals I have tried for years to put my head around. My 23 degree small block combo has had several cams, pistons and induction systems on it, and has always run the best at 36* on alky. Never been tainted with gas so I can't speak to that. Smile
Why some like so little timing with similar combustion chambers always baffles me.


Foxtrot Juliet Bravo
 
Posts: 6463 | Location: Illinois | Registered: July 08, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
Picture of rusty
posted Hide Post
36 for me on alky on a na 598


honesty is the best policy,insanity is a better deffense
1.036, 6.16@ 224

 
Posts: 1472 | Location: texas | Registered: February 17, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post



DRR Sportsman
Picture of FootbrakeJim
posted Hide Post
Another factor that may play into the timing requirement, is the size and shape of the combustion chambers and piston domes. Don't know if they affect flame front travel differently for different fuels...


Dan "Jim" Moore
Much too young to feel this damn old!!
 
Posts: 1110 | Location: Farmersville, TX  | Registered: December 05, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by FootbrakeJim:
Another factor that may play into the timing requirement, is the size and shape of the combustion chambers and piston domes. Don't know if they affect flame front travel differently for different fuels...


This is what I ran into on my engine. 14:1 with domes it wants more timing. Run it at 36 but is best at 38 but I have hard start issues right now. Flat tops with good combustion chambers want less.
 
Posts: 1595 | Location: PA | Registered: February 26, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by moparacer:

This is what I ran into on my engine. 14:1 with domes it wants more timing. Run it at 36 but is best at 38 but I have hard start issues right now.


Consider using Grid programmable ignition to fix this problem.
 
Posts: 2692 | Location: 53056 | Registered: December 30, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Beck:

Then you wouldn't approve of me using a restrictor plate to slow my car down from 9.4's to 10.0's.... Wink
........LOL...."Your killing me Small".......just pull a spark plug wire off and save the work installing anything .


Fellow racer and servant of the Lord of Lords
John 14:6
"Creekside Racing Ministry"
MFI system, ProCharger Non-intercooled [6.02 @ 229 or 3.91/660' soft tune and killing power above 6K rpm]
Ron Clevenger
 
Posts: 1006 | Location: Visalia, Calif. 93292 | Registered: November 23, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
Picture of RacerVX54
posted Hide Post
38 on gas 38 on alky


"Just Shut Up and Race"

Brian Martin
Martin Racing
5.50 126
 
Posts: 1422 | Location: Va.Beach .Va | Registered: August 03, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
posted Hide Post
quote:
Another factor that may play into the timing requirement, is the size and shape of the combustion chambers and piston domes


I think this is why the last several 408 SBC I built perform well at 32 degrees. They have a 56 CC chamber and small rounded dome giving around 13:1 compression.

One combination won a 7 round race without changing the dial. [3000 pound with driver 1990 Firebird with 6.13 ET]


Larry Woodfin



 
Posts: 1877 | Location: Kilgore TX | Registered: March 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
  Powered by Social Strata Page 1 2  
 

DragRaceResults.Com    Bracket Talk    Bracket Talk Forum  Hop To Forum Categories  Tech Talk - by Abruzzi    Timing on Methanol compared to gas??

© DragRaceResults.com 2024