quote:

Originally posted by BD104X:
Following... I never believed in adding any extra relays or solenoids either but after switching to a high-HP starter, the neutral safety switch in my shifter (older Outlaw) won't handle the load.

Not understanding. The neutral safety switch should only allow the circuit to complete (turn on relay/low load) - not carry any substantial load required by the starter....

And just like the "trigger" on the KR boards, they are usually only activating the starter solenoid or the ford relay in this case.

Like ski said the neutral is wired through the board now, even the under hood starter buttons. Which that is one thing I didn't like about this car, the buttons were just wired to the solenoid and with turn the starter no matter what gear it was in.

quote:

Originally posted by SpeierRacingHeads:
Like ski said the neutral is wired through the board now, even the under hood starter buttons. Which that is one thing I didn't like about this car, the buttons were just wired to the solenoid and with turn the starter no matter what gear it was in.

That is like, no good......I have witnessed cars start in gear before in the lanes and the pits and wondered why it was never caught in tech.

That should be checked on every car.

1. At one point the K&R kits required you to use the ford solenoid style with a jumper wire at the starter, they even provided it with their kits, not sure if this changed.
2. I always use a ford style solenoid on all my cars I wire.
3. On item 2, how that solenoid is used depends on the starter and motor it is getting bolted to. The Meziere wiring chart is highly recommended for their starters and others, big dawg, etc. I have gotten away with not doing it but it was a unique circumstance where we upped the size of wire and did a few other things.

Meziere wiring chart basically has the hot straight to the starter. To me that makes sense because they do not want to any components on the feed wire to the starter that could reduce amperage. Back to my comment about another thing to go wrong. Each time you engage that solenoid it is basically arching and where the failures I have seen happen. Eventually they wear out.

I do however see the benefit in not having a live wire thru the whole car. But in order to do that you need the solenoid as close to the battery after the master shutoff. That way the line is only live when starter is in use.

Lastly and not picking but in OPs diagram where you have other wires originally attached to Bat terminal on starter - you now have all those wires running thru the entire car HOT. And if you put the solenoid in a central location (as it looks like its near the front of the car in picture) it is hot to that point.

I would run the wire straight to the starter, same as every OEM car (my Z06 has battery in back compartment is like that from factory), and simply run the purple from KR to the starter solenoid. Teh KR board addresses everything else in the meziere diagram. Exactly how mine is and works fine. Neutral safety is all setup thru KR board and wires. Simple and easy to diagnose a problem at track.

quote:

Originally posted by Slick Vic:
1. At one point the K&R kits required you to use the ford solenoid style with a jumper wire at the starter, they even provided it with their kits, not sure if this changed.
2. I always use a ford style solenoid on all my cars I wire.
3. On item 2, how that solenoid is used depends on the starter and motor it is getting bolted to. The Meziere wiring chart is highly recommended for their starters and others, big dawg, etc. I have gotten away with not doing it but it was a unique circumstance where we upped the size of wire and did a few other things.

I just have a PowerMax plus 1.9hp starter. Just a 11.5-1 SS engine.

quote:

Originally posted by ski_dwn_it:
Meziere wiring chart basically has the hot straight to the starter. To me that makes sense because they do not want to any components on the feed wire to the starter that could reduce amperage. Back to my comment about another thing to go wrong. Each time you engage that solenoid it is basically arching and where the failures I have seen happen. Eventually they wear out.

Exactly why I went back to the old way, that I mentioned in Post #18.

I actually had one weld one day and stay on.

Cost me the 5th round.

The next week. No more solenoid.

quote:

Originally posted by ski_dwn_it:

quote:

Originally posted by BD104X:
Following... I never believed in adding any extra relays or solenoids either but after switching to a high-HP starter, the neutral safety switch in my shifter (older Outlaw) won't handle the load.

Not understanding. The neutral safety switch should only allow the circuit to complete (turn on relay/low load) - not carry any substantial load required by the starter....

And just like the "trigger" on the KR boards, they are usually only activating the starter solenoid or the ford relay in this case.

Never had an issue until I installed an Ultimate Big Dog from HOP. Starter spins great when I bypass the neutral switch. I spoke to Mark Payne about it and he said that the heavy duty solenoids / drives on his starters do draw more than the little Hitachi starters and it's too much for the little micro switch in the shifter, he advised I add a 30a relay.

quote:

Originally posted by BD104X:

quote:

Originally posted by ski_dwn_it:

quote:

Originally posted by BD104X:
Following... I never believed in adding any extra relays or solenoids either but after switching to a high-HP starter, the neutral safety switch in my shifter (older Outlaw) won't handle the load.

Not understanding. The neutral safety switch should only allow the circuit to complete (turn on relay/low load) - not carry any substantial load required by the starter....

And just like the "trigger" on the KR boards, they are usually only activating the starter solenoid or the ford relay in this case.

Never had an issue until I installed an Ultimate Big Dog from HOP. Starter spins great when I bypass the neutral switch. I spoke to Mark Payne about it and he said that the heavy duty solenoids / drives on his starters do draw more than the little Hitachi starters and it's too much for the little micro switch in the shifter, he advised I add a 30a relay.

yes you should not be running the high current draw thru the neutral safety to the starter solenoid. The neutral safety should activate the relay (low current required), that in turn sends power to the solenoid (that handles the high current). The KR boards have that built into them and you just need to run the purple wire from post on board to solenoid.

quote:

Never had an issue until I installed an Ultimate Big Dog from HOP. Starter spins great when I bypass the neutral switch. I spoke to Mark Payne about it and he said that the heavy duty solenoids / drives on his starters do draw more than the little Hitachi starters and it's too much for the little micro switch in the shifter, he advised I add a 30a relay.

Agreed. A 30amp (N/0 contact) rated Bosch type automotive relay is all that is needed. Several relay boards have 40 amp rated outputs for the starter solenoid activation.

The idea of a Ford style solenoid up by the battery has me thinking I may go that way though - my battery cable is through the framerail and I always worried about it a little. As long as I have to add a relay of some sort anyway, I like the idea of that heavy cable only being hot when cranking.

The small post on our starters can need up to 40amps to drive it properly.

We don't like to have the main battery cable run through the Ford relay for two reasons.
1) They will eat some volts that your starter motor really wants.
2) They fail more when running that kind of amp through them.

If you currently have the main cable going through the Ford relay with a small jumper at the starter, It is really easy to change without needing to do alot of rewiring.
Simply remove the jumper wire at the starter. Remove the starter battery cable from the starter at the ford relay and add it to the same post for the main battery cable. Now run a 10 gauge wire from the Ford realy to the small post on the starter.

I use a 300amp quick acting fuse on my main battery cable before the cut off switch for safety.

quote:

Originally posted by 1leg:
The small post on our starters can need up to 40amps to drive it properly.

We don't like to have the main battery cable run through the Ford relay for two reasons.
1) They will eat some volts that your starter motor really wants.
2) They fail more when running that kind of amp through them.

If you currently have the main cable going through the Ford relay with a small jumper at the starter, It is really easy to change without needing to do alot of rewiring.
Simply remove the jumper wire at the starter. Remove the starter battery cable from the starter at the ford relay and add it to the same post for the main battery cable. Now run a 10 gauge wire from the Ford realy to the small post on the starter.

I use a 300amp quick acting fuse on my main battery cable before the cut off switch for safety.

1leg you have PM. (unrelated to this topic)

Couple of electrical engineering things to think about when it comes to this stuff. The solenoid on the starter itself, when the small terminal gets energized it engages and pulls in. This pushes the pinion gear out of the start to engage the flywheel. This solenoid also has contacts on it that connect the large electric motor to the large cable and it turns. When the power is removed from the small wire, the solenoid is pushed back by springs, and the contacts that are made to engage the large motor separate. During this separation, there is an ARC from the voltage and large current flow. Over time this ARC causes damage to those contacts and cause issues. In the electrical world if you have a large load disconnecting like that across contacts, we will use two or three sets of contact in series that open at the same time, which splits the ARC across those sets of contacts. Since its splitting the amount of ARC is 1/2 or 1/3 less than just a single contact and the contacts last longer, way longer. By using a ford solenoid, you are placing two sets of contacts in series that drop out almost at the same time which reduces the ARC across the contacts. I say almost because I feel that the Ford solenoid actually drops out first, even if just by the smallest fraction of time. It most likely takes most of the ARC with the starter having an ARC that is diminishing as it separates. With proper planning, the ford solenoid can be located to an easy spot to access and can be replaced in a matter of short time instead of an entire starter. I always keep a spare and when the starter gives me the first indication that its not spinning fast enough, or has a delay when engaging, replace the ford solenoid. I have replaced several ford solenoids before ever having an issue with a starter, and usually the issue I have is the pinion spring has failed and will not pull the pinon gear back.

Picture and part number of the 300 amp fuse install please!

quote:

Originally posted by 1leg:
The small post on our starters can need up to 40amps to drive it properly.

We don't like to have the main battery cable run through the Ford relay for two reasons.
1) They will eat some volts that your starter motor really wants.
2) They fail more when running that kind of amp through them.

If you currently have the main cable going through the Ford relay with a small jumper at the starter, It is really easy to change without needing to do alot of rewiring.
Simply remove the jumper wire at the starter. Remove the starter battery cable from the starter at the ford relay and add it to the same post for the main battery cable. Now run a 10 gauge wire from the Ford realy to the small post on the starter.

I use a 300amp quick acting fuse on my main battery cable before the cut off switch for safety.

The solenoid contacts failed on the 4.5 yr old HOP starter for me this summer. The gear would kick out but the motor would not run. Replacing the solenoid fixed.

For me, I’d probably be wise to replace the starter solenoid every 2-3 years. I’ve been checking valves every 30 runs at most now and the bumping of the engine could possibly be wearing the contacts.

HOP offers Heavy Duty remote starter solenoids as well.

I decided to run the jumper wire. I ran one for decades checking valves after every run. Buy a good solenoid and it will last forever. The biggest problem I see is guys buying a $15 one at Auto Zone that aren't high amp.

Someday I will tell you the story about being 800 miles from home with a friend that dropped a wrench and it hit perfectly on the power post of the starter and ground. It was a nightmare.

My main interest is why this is a thing now. All my questions were answered. Thanks!

quote:

Someday I will tell you the story about being 800 miles from home with a friend that dropped a wrench and it hit perfectly on the power post of the starter and ground. It was a nightmare.

Good case for using an insulated stud terminal cover

quote:

Originally posted by Lincoln:
Picture and part number of the 300 amp fuse install please!

The one currently in my truck was bought locally at the parts store, Look in the sterio department for bolt down fuse
Waytec sell some that go directly on the battery terminal, I have not tried one of these yet.

https://www.waytekwire.com/cat...cd-ac41-af02014cfeef

https://www.waytekwire.com/cat...-mega-amg-fuse-block

https://www.waytekwire.com/pro...-ann-anl-fuse-holder

This message has been edited. Last edited by: 1leg,

Well everything works! LOL. I'd much rather port a set of heads. A lot of work!