As far as simple bolt on, e85 wins in your case over methonal because it it just a carb swap and refill the tank. Your current fuel system is up to the task. My experience with e85 on a braket car is I got most of the benefit of methonal at a lower cost of conversion. Added plus is I can use pump e85 at $2.00 a gallon and see no difference between it and race e85 other than cost. Just my opinion and what I have observed.

I go around 80-100 laps on an oil change. Oil is sent off and always comes back clean. I run my engine about 190 degrees, and try to keep the oil at least that temp. I have an oil temp sensor and was really surprised how much effort it takes to get heat in the oil. I do use an oil pan heater and get the oil to at least 100-120 before I hit the key. I think the key with alky is getting plenty of heat in the engine so the alky boils off. I also never do anything special for the winter, and I do run a topline. I also have found that all the horror stories I was told about alky were found to be untrue. If your milking the oil, get some heat in your oil and work on the tune. The only special I do that I didnt do with gas is pour some alky in the carb to wet the manifold. Typically fires the first hit of the key.

quote:

Originally posted by strictlybiz:

quote:

Originally posted by racerdude2054:

quote:

Originally posted by strictlybiz:
You will be a tenth faster on alcohol with carb and 2.5 tenth faster injection your fuel system now will handle your combo. Call nickerson performance in pa for a carb

Not true in his combination, recently switched from injection (terminator) to Gas Carb in a 4.50-4.60 dragster and picked up .05 and gained mph by going to gas

then the tune up was way off

A 632 conventional headed motor with a car and driver that weigh over 1900 pounds should run 410s to 420s by your logic on injection

We ran injection for over 10 years, know the ins and outs and ups and downs. The injection was tuned by James Monroe

quote:

Originally posted by DOTracer:

quote:

Originally posted by racerdude2054:

quote:

Originally posted by DOTracer:

quote:

Originally posted by rs72z:
Just out of curiosity why would you not be interested in injection? Thinking terminator not a hat style.

Looking for a quick/simple bolt on conversion. Not interested in having to drill/modify the manifold for the nozzles.

If going to alcohol from your setup, none of it will be a Quick and easy bolt on in my opinion. I also would not run alcohol without a primer plus system. Alcohol is harder on parts, requires more frequent oil changes, and requires you to carry twice as much fuel with you to the track. The set up will require more work than bolt on and alcohol is in every way more work than gas is from: cranking the car, warming up the car, maintenance, etc. the only two aspects that alcohol wins in is that it is less sensitive to temperature change and that it runs cooler so it can be hot lapped much easier

I change my oil every 20 runs on gas. How often does one change it on methanol?

Seems like methanol will make my between round work easier since I won’t have to waste near as much time cooking the car back down. I can let it heat soak.

I hear people say harder on parts...like what? What wears out prematurely compared to gas?

Not sure why you would change oil every 20 passes on gas. We changed oil every 30 passes on alcohol and every 90 passes or so on gas

Alcohol can be less work once you understand it between rounds but you HAVE to run a primer plus system with it or you will be spending more time between rounds warming it back up than you would cooling off a gas motor. On injection in particular the car would actually cool down slightly going down track

Alcohol is a naturally corrosive material and is harder on all parts than gas. The motor will attract more water. A primer plus system will also help this as well as a vacuum pump

quote:

Originally posted by racerdude2054:

quote:

Originally posted by DOTracer:

quote:

Originally posted by racerdude2054:

quote:

Originally posted by DOTracer:

quote:

Originally posted by rs72z:
Just out of curiosity why would you not be interested in injection? Thinking terminator not a hat style.

Looking for a quick/simple bolt on conversion. Not interested in having to drill/modify the manifold for the nozzles.

If going to alcohol from your setup, none of it will be a Quick and easy bolt on in my opinion. I also would not run alcohol without a primer plus system. Alcohol is harder on parts, requires more frequent oil changes, and requires you to carry twice as much fuel with you to the track. The set up will require more work than bolt on and alcohol is in every way more work than gas is from: cranking the car, warming up the car, maintenance, etc. the only two aspects that alcohol wins in is that it is less sensitive to temperature change and that it runs cooler so it can be hot lapped much easier

I change my oil every 20 runs on gas. How often does one change it on methanol?

Seems like methanol will make my between round work easier since I won’t have to waste near as much time cooking the car back down. I can let it heat soak.

I hear people say harder on parts...like what? What wears out prematurely compared to gas?

Not sure why you would change oil every 20 passes on gas. We changed oil every 30 passes on alcohol and every 90 passes or so on gas

Alcohol can be less work once you understand it between rounds but you HAVE to run a primer plus system with it or you will be spending more time between rounds warming it back up than you would cooling off a gas motor. On injection in particular the car would actually cool down slightly going down track

Alcohol is a naturally corrosive material and is harder on all parts than gas. The motor will attract more water. A primer plus system will also help this as well as a vacuum pump

Well, there’s simply not enough hood clearance to add the 3/4” thick primer plus plate, so...

The primer plus would be nice, it is not mandatory. I have been running a carb with electric pump for the last eight years without a problem.

The only "special thing" i do is put it on gas before it is parked for the winter to get the alcohol out of the system.

There are absolutely better ways to run Alcohol, but this setup is wayyy better than gas.

Ole SS racer here , purchased a left steer Camaro roadster last year to bracket race . Purchased new 598 , an run on gas because no experience with methanol . Found out how quickly engine builds heat . My SS car with small block never a problem . In the heat leave staging lanes no higher than 140 , when get to time slip booth 190-200 . This is running water an fan , has good size radiator , but no openings for fresh air in front end . My engine man did suggest opening air bleeds 1/2 turn an run water wetter which has seemed to help . But heat is diffently a concern . A race a couple weeks ago in cooler weather was much more manageable. I had went 4 rounds at a race in august an I could see hot lapping would be a problem , my back up plan was to start towing with golf cart to lanes as opposed to driving . So I myself have been watching an asking questions about methanol . My cousin runs e85 an swears by it , but the smell of it about kills me , I was behind a e85 car in staging lanes an about had to get out of my car , that stuff is horrible. I don't know how a person could even start there car in the garage to check something with that stuff without a gas mask , methanol is no were close to that stuff . I did notice last couple races that I was out with neighbors all around me running methanol was carrying 55 gal drum or drums (2) with them . At that particular 3 day race my neighbors seemed to empty 1 to 2 of those 55 gal drums an I barely used 15 gal Sunoco 112 . So I can not see any cost savings in fuel alone ? An as much as they run there motors to build heat , they would put a lot of wear on engine ? Now I'm just observing , I would concern me with the way DOT has got an hauling around that much fuel also would be a concern ? I use a APD max speed carb , car seems to be very consistent on gas , so cooling is my only concern . I am looking at a chiller to hook to engine for cooling in the summers heat in the event of late round cooling as opposed to cost of conversion an added fuel usage . Thanks to all for there comments on this methanol, as I myself have an currently giving this fuel great consideration. But that E85 is diffently a no in my book , that stuff takes your breath away .

Don't let folks scare you away from methanol.
Just call a reputable alcohol carb builder (not a gas carb guy that dabbles in alcohol stuff). They will setup the carb correctly to keep the oil clean and be able to build heat. You don't need a primer plus. It is handy but If not easy enough to build heat a lot of folks with carbs use a vacuum leak device to help build heat (this technique doesn't always work so well with mechanical injection though). You will also probably have to downsize your cooling system. everything you did to help keep it cool on gas will just make it harder with methanol.

Everyone has there preferences. For me I like the mechanical injection. But I can understand it when someone wants to stick with something they know and are comfortable with.
Plus like you said with an adjustable restrictor plate a carb is the best choice.

Imo give Ken Jones a call for an alcohol carb. He will also tell you what the needs will be to feed the carb.

Scott

Call APD for a carb. You won't be disappointed. You don't need a primer plus, plenty run/win without them.

I'm wondering what your compression ratio is? How about cam duration? What cylinder head?
I don't think E85 is the way to go, but alky would probably work.

I'm guessing that I'm around 1150 hp running alky carb no problem. Belt drive pump in a dragster tho. The right carb will go a long way, especially in mind shaft air.

I go 30-35 runs, change filter add fresh Qt of oil to filter, then go another 30-35 runs and change all the oil. Oil still looks clean at 60+ runs. Vacuum pump, block heaters when needed, lean out valve, make sure to get the oil hot. Not a big deal. Sure makes double entering a breeze, especially with an alternator on top of it.

I go into burnout 160, stage usually 165-170, maybe 180-185 at et shack on hot day or doubled. Cools of real quick.

3/4 bottle of Klotz in drum of alky with a bottle of scent. Averages around 2.40ish per gallon on high side, if you shop around a little.

I did run gas one day when it was decent out, not mind shaft, but decent. Switched back to my alky carb next day, same track, similar air, ran the same.

"Some" people break stuff on alky but it's not alkys fault. One of the biggest reasons people break stuff on alky is too much timing. A tune up that's too rich, along with too much timing will make the plugs look good (and the time cards decent too) but it will beat up the bearings and wrist pins. People also break stuff due to milking oil. That's due to a bad tune up too. Alky "can" be corrosive to fuel system parts. Most of this is cause by moisture absorbed by the alky, not the alky itself. Using the right materials, along with not letting the car sit for long periods of time with fuel in it will prevent this. I suspect people in areas where there's high humidity are more likely to have fuel system damage.

Now, regarding oil changes. (Be careful, don't set yourself on fire) Dip a finger in oil. (whatever brand you use) the pour some gas on it. The gas will wash the oil away. Now do this with alky. The alky won't wash the oil off. Oil and alky don't mix. That's why the oil get's milky if it has unburned alky in it. However, gas and oil will mix. Any unburned gas simply mixes with the oil hurting the lubricity, but not making it look "bad". Due to the increased fuel volume with alky there is more alky getting into the oil than with gas but alky boils at less than 150 degrees so getting the oil hot, and having enough crankcase ventilation (like a vacuum pump) will clean the alky from the oil. Once racing gas has mixed with the oil it won't boil out.


The people who make the primer plus are excellent, smart people. The primer plus is an excellent product, that fills a need....but I don't want ANY gas inside my engine.

I am with the guys who actually run methanol.
First, I have to thank George Rupert for the information and advice and then converting my 1150 Quick Fuel carb to a Rupert Alky Carb, Been stupid consistent and never touched it. Belt drive, 9psi, 30' degrees timing 565" in dragster.
We pour some gas in the float bowls on the first start of the day.
Starts perfect.
At the end of a weekend we run the carb dry, shut off fuel shutoff. Then we fill float bowls with gas, start it and this is for my own peace of mind, that takes any moisture that might have been in the cylinder out of consideration. We also use Klotz Uplon alky-lube.
Change oil at about 50-60 runs but the last two oil samples we sent in to Schaeffer Oil has me convinced it might be 100 runs next year.
Run it up to around 200 at end of day and try to make sure oil is over 180.
Oil looks perfect. Car is deadly (Thank you George Rupert!!)
Won't be changing anytime soon and I am short on time!!

quote:

Originally posted by gxp7903:
I'm wondering what your compression ratio is? How about cam duration? What cylinder head?
I don't think E85 is the way to go, but alky would probably work.

I'm guessing that I'm around 1150 hp running alky carb no problem. Belt drive pump in a dragster tho. The right carb will go a long way, especially in mind shaft air.

I go 30-35 runs, change filter add fresh Qt of oil to filter, then go another 30-35 runs and change all the oil. Oil still looks clean at 60+ runs. Vacuum pump, block heaters when needed, lean out valve, make sure to get the oil hot. Not a big deal. Sure makes double entering a breeze, especially with an alternator on top of it.

I go into burnout 160, stage usually 165-170, maybe 180-185 at et shack on hot day or doubled. Cools of real quick.

3/4 bottle of Klotz in drum of alky with a bottle of scent. Averages around 2.40ish per gallon on high side, if you shop around a little.

I did run gas one day when it was decent out, not mind shaft, but decent. Switched back to my alky carb next day, same track, similar air, ran the same.

594 ci bbc, 4.650" bore x 4.375 stroke. short deck. Brodix 377MC cylinder heads, BES dowel shift, 15.5:1 compression.

Cam is 283/300 @ .050.

quote:

Originally posted by Toad1:
I am with the guys who actually run methanol.
First, I have to thank George Rupert for the information and advice and then converting my 1150 Quick Fuel carb to a Rupert Alky Carb, Been stupid consistent and never touched it. Belt drive, 9psi, 30' degrees timing 565" in dragster.
We pour some gas in the float bowls on the first start of the day.
Starts perfect.
At the end of a weekend we run the carb dry, shut off fuel shutoff. Then we fill float bowls with gas, start it and this is for my own peace of mind, that takes any moisture that might have been in the cylinder out of consideration. We also use Klotz Uplon alky-lube.
Change oil at about 50-60 runs but the last two oil samples we sent in to Schaeffer Oil has me convinced it might be 100 runs next year.
Run it up to around 200 at end of day and try to make sure oil is over 180.
Oil looks perfect. Car is deadly (Thank you George Rupert!!)
Won't be changing anytime soon and I am short on time!!

Two good friends both run Rupert carbs. One a BBM, the other a BBC.

I spoke to George yesterday. Good guy to talk with although somewhat difficult to keep him focused on the questions I was trying to ask. lol

quote:

Originally posted by BLIND MULE 2217:
Call APD for a carb. You won't be disappointed. You don't need a primer plus, plenty run/win without them.

I had a 1250 APD on Q16 years ago. Was a pretty fast carb, but driveability around the pits sucked. Was really raspy, but never had an issue on the brake or going down track. It bothered me so I spoke with their tech several times and their fix was to have me remove the intermediate air bleeds. lol It got better, but was never clean compared to other carbs I've ran like my current Boob Book 1250 or the previous Dale Cubic 2.40" billet carb.

The new all billet APD's look great but I'm not sure I wanna have to deal with their tech guys again.

Lots of good info so far.
Switched about 5 years ago in my old door-slammer, and picked up a few things along the way (the hard way, of course). Just a few things I haven't seen listed here yet, but that I wish I had known at the time.

**Car exhaust** - if it's not just right, you could be choking to death in the shut-down after the first pass while trying to open the driver's door at 170 MPH to get some air. This is not an exaggeration! I highly recommend side exhaust, but you can try what you have and see if you can still see or breathe when you get to the ticket booth.

Type of foam material in the fuel cell can be an issue, so I removed it. The vent line needs to be large enough to account for the increased fuel demand. Fuel filter material can also be a problem, so I went stainless.

Not sure about the rear fuel cell location in a high horsepower door-slammer, but since you have it turned down, it might be ok. It has to move a lot of fuel a long way. Mine was running 8.30 and was borderline with a mechanical pump. Checking the fuel pressure in the pits was not good enough in this application. A gauge that reads down track is better, as the fuel pressure can fall off quite a bit at the top end compared to winging the throttle in the pits (more so than gas).

It was worth the learning curve. Good luck.

quote:

Originally posted by DOTracer:


Two good friends both run Rupert carbs. One a BBM, the other a BBC.

I spoke to George yesterday. Good guy to talk with although somewhat difficult to keep him focused on the questions I was trying to ask. lol

25-30 years ago I suppose I'd would have been George's competition. (I've done a couple hundred alky carbs/fuel systems) George is really smart, and a super guy. He was a big help to me even though I wasn't his customer.

Some people make it a lot harder than it really is. I switched to an alcohol carb back @ 1995. I do not fog mine, never have. Not sure who started this but it is all the rage now, lol.

I put fresh oil in at the beginning of the year. I check the filter every other race and top off the oil. I only change it now if I hang a needle and seat. I have done it this way for many years with and without a vacuum pump. It doesn't make sense to throw good oil away every 20-50 runs like some posted above.

I order my alcohol without lube and only add a root beer sent to it.

I spray the carb down with WD-40 between races. (butterflies and bushings)

I top off the fuel cell and keep the carb full when not racing. (even in the off season)

This may not work for everyone but it works for me. That's it, it's not complicated (for me anyway)

Todd.
Your Q16 Carb. cannot be that far off from an Alki. carb , Just send it to someone to be up graded. If you do not like it you can always switch it back.

quote:

Originally posted by thphtm:
Todd.
Your Q16 Carb. cannot be that far off from an Alki. carb , Just send it to someone to be up graded. If you do not like it you can always switch it back.

Nah, this Book 1250 has been the best carb I’ve ever owned, have no interest in letting anyone else less with it. I will simply put it on the shelf if I do decide to try methanol.