Post on here the next time you come to Georgia, pretty please.

you don't to wait, I'm easy to find every week tough guy!

stay on topic Ed, truth and fact. Where is your track championship!!!!

The TRUTH and the FACTS are you are a liar and liars never remember their lies...

quote:

Originally posted July 05, 2017 06:58 PM by coolroy:
We use the PAR 5 cam from Scott Duggins at PAR Racing Engines. It has Weisco quick 16 gas ported pistons and the intake has been matched to the heads. It actually weighs 1930 with me in it and has ran a best of 4.56@150 in good weather. At 90 degrees outside it generally goes 4.63 to 4.65

now 45 lbs. lighter than your claim, what else about this combo/car/performance is a lie?

Again, nothing special and frankly subpar IMO for an alky injected 632 with moved center 395HH in a 1930 lb. car.

I've learned long ago to believe nothing I read on these forums and half of what I see with my own eyes.

Bottomline is run whatever fuel you chose in these "big" bracket engines, just know that those running alky will tell you it's better, faster, more consistent then ask yourself why most every nationally known professional bracket engine builder recommends running these engines on race gas, guys that build hundreds of these engines every year.

quote:

Originally posted by Lenny5160:

quote:

Originally posted by TOP38:
Why do you think my 565 lost a tenth on a gas carb over alky injection?

Because alky is a more powerful fuel. It runs cooler and carries its own oxygen.

That's not uncommon at all.

I know you're a sharp guy, Al. I just can't understand why you're telling Ron C that he's wrong, when you're basically saying the same things.

Tony, I believe after considering the difference in AFR between gas and alky, that gas contains more BTU's so alky is not more powerful than gas. Alky does however provide a cooling effect which does have benefit and produce more power which most likely provided the increase in torque between the two fuels.

I am not saying ron is wrong, just asking why what he stated occurs in large cid motors in the intake track vs smaller ones. I feel the real difference starts in the combustion chambers. And by no means am I stating I know everything about this topic but I do have some real life experience here and am just stating what I found and or believe.

quote:

Originally posted by Ron C.:

quote:

Originally posted by TOP38:

quote:

Originally posted by Ron C.:

quote:

Originally posted by Ron C.:
the more efficient the engine is the less difference you will see on switching from gas to alcohol. On real efficient engines you will actually lose power. On the larger displacement motors on alcohol the fuel saturation in the port the fuel starts separating out of the air stream. the air stream cannot support it (keep it atomized). Can't fight the laws of physics.

Digest this and you will have your answer, especially the last sentence.

Ron

In any given motor, you need x fuel ad y air so that ratio is a fixed given. So other than some of the factors I stated, why are you saying the alky comes out on larger motors and not on smaller ones when the AF is the same? Just wondering about your logic here? Ya, more hp means more fuel but more air also.... In either case if designed correctly, you'd have the same amount of fuel and air in a given port per unit of volume.

. As the size of the motor increases so does the required fuel demand. For alcohol we have already doubled the fuel requirement. This mass (weight) increases as the engine size goes up. It takes X amount of energy to keep this mass suspended in the air stream. As the engine size increases the port becomes less and less efficient (fuel mass/resistance/gravity). This line is not linear as engine size increases but continues to widen. I don't know how to explain it any better. So,.......happy racing.

I think I understand what your saying but I just don't see it quite that way. In either case you have twice as much fuel with alky over gas no matter what HP your making. Ya larger CID motors are less efficient based on HP/CID but that is not just an alky deal. In my experience I feel injection, especially a small nozzle/high pressure system provides effective atomization and also shortens the wet intake track, yes the entire intake track see fuel no matter where the injectors are but both conditions help alky stay suspended in the intake track much better than with a carb(s). Once its all in the chamber then things change between the two fuels.

And happy racing to you also

quote:

Originally posted by TOP38:

quote:

Originally posted by Ron C.:

quote:

Originally posted by TOP38:

quote:

Originally posted by Ron C.:

quote:

Originally posted by Ron C.:
the more efficient the engine is the less difference you will see on switching from gas to alcohol. On real efficient engines you will actually lose power. On the larger displacement motors on alcohol the fuel saturation in the port the fuel starts separating out of the air stream. the air stream cannot support it (keep it atomized). Can't fight the laws of physics.

Digest this and you will have your answer, especially the last sentence.

Ron

In any given motor, you need x fuel ad y air so that ratio is a fixed given. So other than some of the factors I stated, why are you saying the alky comes out on larger motors and not on smaller ones when the AF is the same? Just wondering about your logic here? Ya, more hp means more fuel but more air also.... In either case if designed correctly, you'd have the same amount of fuel and air in a given port per unit of volume.

. As the size of the motor increases so does the required fuel demand. For alcohol we have already doubled the fuel requirement. This mass (weight) increases as the engine size goes up. It takes X amount of energy to keep this mass suspended in the air stream. As the engine size increases the port becomes less and less efficient (fuel mass/resistance/gravity). This line is not linear as engine size increases but continues to widen. I don't know how to explain it any better. So,.......happy racing.

I think I understand what your saying but I just don't see it quite that way. In either case you have twice as much fuel with alky over gas no matter what HP your making. Ya larger CID motors are less efficient based on HP/CID but that is not just an alky deal. In my experience I feel injection, especially a small nozzle/high pressure system provides effective atomization and also shortens the wet intake track, yes the entire intake track see fuel no matter where the injectors are but both conditions help alky stay suspended in the intake track much better than with a carb(s). Once its all in the chamber then things change between the two fuels.

And happy racing to you also

Possibly a dumb question after reading these replies. Could direct chamber injection, instead of or in addition to, reduce the inefficiency of a large engine's intake tract on alcohol?

Well according to some of the gurus here, my stuff is junk. Either way, I have an aluminum 632, 870 lift cam, BB4x heads, and single terminator. @ 1920 lbs, using big bubbas, and a wing, the car runs 4.58 - 4.65. That is from -200 da all the way up to 4000' of air. So, alky might not be "fastest", but with big cubic inches and smaller heads, it just runs what it does. I know of several guys that have 632 with 12 degree, and injection and runs 4.40s @ 2000 lbs. People have to remember, that it takes work making dragsters run this fast. Doesn't matter what fuel you use.......

I’m an alky guy but want to try gas again. The alky carb I have on the other dragster I own is a pro systems . I have been happy with its performance and repeatability. I called both APD and Pro Systems in reference to my sub standard 632. Both carb builders suggested gas over alky due to fuel volume and said they thought gas would be faster. I then spoke to Scott Duggins again and he told me the same thing, as well as KB that works at PAR. I’m interested to see what my car runs in good weather on gas. I don’t see how it can or will be faster than injection but I’m gonna try it and see. When comparing that I have a 511 with local ported heads that has ran a best of 4.89 at 1850lbs it’s only 3 tenths slower than my junky sub standard 632. The 511 is only running a lunati .722 .722 lift cam.

quote:

Originally posted by CURTIS REED:

quote:

Originally posted by TOP38:

quote:

Originally posted by Ron C.:

quote:

Originally posted by TOP38:

quote:

Originally posted by Ron C.:

quote:

Originally posted by Ron C.:
the more efficient the engine is the less difference you will see on switching from gas to alcohol. On real efficient engines you will actually lose power. On the larger displacement motors on alcohol the fuel saturation in the port the fuel starts separating out of the air stream. the air stream cannot support it (keep it atomized). Can't fight the laws of physics.

Digest this and you will have your answer, especially the last sentence.

Ron

In any given motor, you need x fuel ad y air so that ratio is a fixed given. So other than some of the factors I stated, why are you saying the alky comes out on larger motors and not on smaller ones when the AF is the same? Just wondering about your logic here? Ya, more hp means more fuel but more air also.... In either case if designed correctly, you'd have the same amount of fuel and air in a given port per unit of volume.

. As the size of the motor increases so does the required fuel demand. For alcohol we have already doubled the fuel requirement. This mass (weight) increases as the engine size goes up. It takes X amount of energy to keep this mass suspended in the air stream. As the engine size increases the port becomes less and less efficient (fuel mass/resistance/gravity). This line is not linear as engine size increases but continues to widen. I don't know how to explain it any better. So,.......happy racing.

I think I understand what your saying but I just don't see it quite that way. In either case you have twice as much fuel with alky over gas no matter what HP your making. Ya larger CID motors are less efficient based on HP/CID but that is not just an alky deal. In my experience I feel injection, especially a small nozzle/high pressure system provides effective atomization and also shortens the wet intake track, yes the entire intake track see fuel no matter where the injectors are but both conditions help alky stay suspended in the intake track much better than with a carb(s). Once its all in the chamber then things change between the two fuels.

And happy racing to you also

Possibly a dumb question after reading these replies. Could direct chamber injection, instead of or in addition to, reduce the inefficiency of a large engine's intake tract on alcohol?

. It works for Sprint cars but not for drag race motors.

quote:

Originally posted by coolroy:
stay on topic Ed, truth and fact. Where is your track championship!!!!

Do not let him bother you. He has none.

quote:

Originally posted by coolroy:
I’m an alky guy but want to try gas again.

I'm glad I was of help convincing you.

quote:

Originally posted by coolroy:
I own is a pro systems . I have been happy with its performance and repeatability. I called both APD and Pro Systems in reference to my sub standard 632. Both carb builders suggested gas over alky due to fuel volume and said they thought gas would be faster. I then spoke to Scott Duggins again and he told me the same thing, as well as KB that works at PAR. I’m interested to see what my car runs in good weather on gas.

so they agree with me!

SHOCKING!

Without our back and forth last night, you never make the calls this morning.

You're welcome and I accept your apology.

quote:

Originally posted by Ron C.:

quote:

Originally posted by CURTIS REED:


Possibly a dumb question after reading these replies. Could direct chamber injection, instead of or in addition to, reduce the inefficiency of a large engine's intake tract on alcohol?

. It works for Sprint cars but not for drag race motors.

I wonder why? Wesmar said it was worth 35hp when we were thinking about it years ago. That is on their 410 sprint engines though.

I actually made the calls about a month ago. What I struggle with is the increased torque numbers that are shown with injected alky. Usually increased torque translates to quicker et’s. I want to try gas again because when I walked the pits at the million it seems most people were running carbs and the ones I actually talked to were on gas. Out of the dragster I observed in the staging lanes only myself and one other car had terminators. I am willing to give it a try and see what happens. If I don’t like the gas I will switch back. The reason I’m choosing apd for the carb is because of the billet bowls that are being advertised as not causing as much aeration/bubbles in fuel which should increase tuning ability.

quote:

Originally posted by CURTIS REED:

quote:

Originally posted by Ron C.:

quote:

Originally posted by CURTIS REED:


Possibly a dumb question after reading these replies. Could direct chamber injection, instead of or in addition to, reduce the inefficiency of a large engine's intake tract on alcohol?

. It works for Sprint cars but not for drag race motors.

I wonder why? Wesmar said it was worth 35hp when we were thinking about it years ago. That is on their 410 sprint engines though.

. Has to do with the way the engines are run. Sprint engines are on and off the throttle. Drag race motors are constant wide open. So it's related to a time element for fuel atomization. Lot of raw fuel goes out the exhaust in drag race motor.

Mine is only from experience and what I have witnessed. The vast majority of bracket engines I have seen go to alky go faster. Most pick up again going to injection.

It seems that the less refined a combo is, the more the gain. The more refined, or closer to using up the cylinder heads potential a combo is, the less alky is a benefit.

quote:

Originally posted by coolroy:
The reason I’m choosing apd for the carb is because of the billet bowls that are being advertised as not causing as much aeration/bubbles in fuel which should increase tuning ability.

Your $ to waste.

Yes, Gas may be faster on a larger motor, but don't forget about consistency... my motor would move 2x on gas -vs- what it does on alky, that's the name of OUR game isn't it?

quote:

Originally posted by coolroy:
I actually made the calls about a month ago. What I struggle with is the increased torque numbers that are shown with injected alky. Usually increased torque translates to quicker et’s. I want to try gas again because when I walked the pits at the million it seems most people were running carbs and the ones I actually talked to were on gas. Out of the dragster I observed in the staging lanes only myself and one other car had terminators. I am willing to give it a try and see what happens. If I don’t like the gas I will switch back. The reason I’m choosing apd for the carb is because of the billet bowls that are being advertised as not causing as much aeration/bubbles in fuel which should increase tuning ability.

APD does great work but I would not spend the extra cash on those bowls. In fact I know of racers who had them and removed them due to consistency issues. Just my two cents.

as I do too.

quote:

Originally posted by Richie:
Yes, Gas may be faster on a larger motor, but don't forget about consistency... my motor would move 2x on gas -vs- what it does on alky, that's the name of OUR game isn't it?

it is and I will put my cars against a similar car on alky any day and it will be just as consistent.