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Bracket Talk Bracket Talk Forum Tech Talk - by Abruzzi Can of worms - Oil QuestionGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| Can of worms - Oil Question | Login/Join |
DRR Sportsman |
oil analysis Read my signature Joe Without data, you’re just another guy with an opinion. | |||
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DRR Pro |
Just for the sake of arguments: From MOET: "Motor oil lab printouts will only provide information such as the amount of metals, the amount of contaminants, the amount of additive package components in the oil, and its viscosity rating in centistokes (cSt) at 100*C (212*F). And the cost for this test is usually around $30.00 US per sample sent in." "According to a Royal Purple Motor Oil Engineer I spoke with a few years ago, he said only people outside of the Motor Oil Industry, use the unprofessional terminology of calling new oil lab tests, virgin oil analysis (VOA), and used oil lab tests, used oil analysis (UOA). The VOA and UOA references are commonly used on Internet Forum discussions about motor oil, even though they are not legitimate names. Even so, in order for the most people to follow along, I’ll continue to use that wrong terminology for a moment here." "For a VOA, you will NOT get any information on absolutely THE most important thing any motor oil does for your engine, and that is PREVENT WEAR. Everything else a motor oil does for your engine, comes AFTER that. There is not one thing in that lab printout that will tell you how good that oil is at preventing wear. And looking at the zinc and phosphorus levels is completely worthless, because as you will see below, those levels DO NOT predict an oil’s wear protection capability, even though countless people have been brainwashed to believe it does. Therefore, you still have no idea if that oil is any good at performing job number one for your engine. So, you are left with guessing, believing Advertising hype, or Internet chatter, as to which oil you should choose for your engine. In other words, you wasted $30.00 for the lab test, plus the cost of shipping, and your time, all for nothing." "If you have a lab printout from when an oil was brand new, and then you get a UOA of that exact same oil, you can compare those two printouts to see how the oil has changed during that particular change interval. There is definitely some value to that, for indications of engine health, how much of the factory additive package has been depleted, etc. But, it still doesn’t provide any meaningful direct information about how that motor oil compares to other motor oils in terms of wear protection. And if you do see extra metal quantity in the used oil that might be of concern, it is too late, because you are looking at results after the fact. Wear and/or damage has already begun. That is like closing the barn door after the horse already got out. And you still wouldn’t know if the extra metal is because of a poor choice of motor oils or because of a mechanical problem." The Standard Oil Analysis by Blackstone is currently $30.00. | |||
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| DRR S/Pro |
True statement, but hardly any new news there. One has to make his decision on an oils film strength (preventing wear) from other sources.
Are you implying one is not better off knowing this fact? Small, yet abnormal, amounts of metal is a precursor (not massive damage, that's why some of us cut open oil filters) and can be dealt with by knowing the type of metal and it likely source. Or if it's poor oil, then one can change due to the information. I don't think avoiding factual information is a best practice. People outside the chemical engineering field are decidedly not professionals in that field so one would not expect them to use engineering terms. Would they? New vs. used seems to be a pretty accurate description for the average man.This message has been edited. Last edited by: Canted Valve, Illegitimi non carborundum | |||
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| DRR Pro |
CV - you do see the quotes around the statements? The information is from another source, not me. On the metal discovery issue, I would believe that it would be beneficial and similar to cutting the filter or examining a screening type filter. The earlier caught the better chance of saving the engine. But then it comes down to how often that occurs. If we use a baseline of 50 runs to change oil and filter along with examining the filter - did the damage start with the first run or the 50th? We don't know that answer. And do we send each 50 run sample of oil out for analysis? Or should we also employ a microscope in our box of tools to examine oil droplets after every pass? | |||
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| DRR S/Pro |
yes sir I did. I assumed since it was posted under your name you agreed/supported it. As far as your 50 run scenario, we all have to make our own decisions about such things. Some make better decisions than others, like most things in life. Illegitimi non carborundum | |||
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| DRR Sportsman |
The US Army has been using oil analysis to determine when and what is going on inside most of their engines for the last 20 years at least. maybe someone should let them know that they are doing it wrong. one more note, if you look at the royal purple add package, you might understand why they don't want people to do that. Hey they do have a really good marketing department. bottom line you can do what you "feel" is right. Joe Without data, you’re just another guy with an opinion. | |||
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| DRR S/Pro |
It has been standard practice in the oilfield industry on diesel-electric drilling rigs for many years as well. Illegitimi non carborundum | |||
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| DRR Elite |
I'm a believer in oil analysis. But I don't use it in my cars. Let me explain. At work, we have pumps, turbines, compressors, diesels....Do we do oil analysis? It depends. On the pumps, mostly no. Why? Well one, because the test is more expensive than the oil on small pumps. And, because that isn't the nature of the failures we have on pumps. Our product will knock the seals out of a pump before we have an oil breakdown. So we change the oil then. If Process contaminates the oil with water, then we aren't going to catch it with a test before it fails anyhow. So in that case you are just beating off with the test. My reliability engineer wants to test everything and filter larger reservoirs with filter carts etc. But when I ask for where the economic justification is for preventing failures that WE SEE, he can't. On the turbines....of course. The reservoir can be 200 gallons of liquid gold. And the turbine is $2mil, and runs 24/7. We need to plan down time for service and repair, and the test gives us a way to plan. My race cars and street vehicles? Well let me ask you this: How many oil breakdown failures have you had? Not water contamination. Not bearing failures due to other issues. Not lack of oil pressure. Oil breakdown only. Me? None. I have seen cars with severe neglect with sludging and you know there are issues there. But we have put 300k miles on cars changing oil every 5-7k miles. I check out my bearings on the race car every couple seasons as a rule. I don't get oil related failures. Your peak inside your engine between teardowns is the filter. Cut it and look. If oil breakdown isn't the source of your failures, why focus your efforts there? Focus on where your problems are. That's just my opinion and experience. Foxtrot Juliet Bravo | |||
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| DRR S/Pro |
My race car no, for the reasons you listed. For my street cars the first time I try and make an educated guess as to when I think it's necessary, I'll send in a sample and change from thereon out based on the one sample. But that's just me. Illegitimi non carborundum | |||
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DRR Sportsman |
It is a by pass filter, there is no pressure drop. It bypasses a small percentage of the oil and returns it back to the pan. You still run your main 25-30 micron oe filter. | |||
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DRR Pro |
You mind if I ask how it does that without sending it through the engine? ____________________________ 2017 and 2018 Osage Casinos Tulsa Raceway Park No-Box Champion 2018 Div4 Goodguys Hammer award winner | |||
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| DRR S/Pro |
16000 miles was to much on my diesel based on a sample i had tested. Backed up to 12000 and it was perfect J.R. Baxter ""Fathom the hypocrisy of a Government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured ..but not everyone must prove they are a citizen." 2024 Miller Rolla Competition Engines ProCharger Hoosier Tires Abruzzi | |||
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DRR Elite |
If your going to deviate from the OEM Maintenance interval, your taking a risk doing it based on others experience on the web or worse guy feel. Get it right and lab test your used oil. The lab test will tell you, with data, what the Critical oil metrics are. With a little experience and a few tests, you’ll have the confidence to extend the interval. In any case, never exceed a year on the oil. Always use a top shelf oil and OEM filter. Polaris labs is a better value proposition than Black Stone. I’ve used them both, as well as Cat, and the Bulk 10 pack of Polaris Labs Advanced kits is a great value. 2005 2000lb 4 link dragster home brew 582 BBC Dart 355 1.058 2.98 4.629@149 6.094 7.310@185 | |||
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| DRR Top Comp |
Here’s another one. Motor oil is motor oil https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLeXpF1kzDU Clowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right. Here I am....... | |||
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| DRR S/Pro |
quote: In any case, never exceed a year on the oil. How & why do you make that blanket statement after recommending an oil analysis to validate oil condition? What happens on day 366? A nearly 2 year old sample was recommended to go another 500 miles on a recent sample. Yes, it was a top self oil. OEM filter? Motorcraft makes an outstanding filter, but I don't know that it's Ford OEM. AC and Mopar can definitely be beat. Illegitimi non carborundum | |||
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| DRR Elite |
Earl knows lol 2005 2000lb 4 link dragster home brew 582 BBC Dart 355 1.058 2.98 4.629@149 6.094 7.310@185 | |||
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| DRR Sportsman |
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DRR Sportsman |
I’ve been getting a trouble code for the turbo on my motorhome (2004 Cummins 5.9 ISB). It is a variable geometry turbo and all of my research shows that is most likely caused by the vanes in the variable part of the turbo getting sooted up and seizing. A guy I spoke to today said the biggest culprit is excessive idling. I did not buy it new so I’m wondering if the previous owner subscribed to the “let it idle once a month” theory since it only has 26,000 miles. Billy Duhs - BD104X@gmail.com | |||
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DRR Sportsman |
It is a common issue on the VGT when they have excessive idle times. If and when you decide to get it in for repairs, make sure the Actuator is checked for proper operation. A bad or weak actuator will cause a turbo vein issue. Soot City. Under a load value the actuator is constantly moving as needed for boost requirements.This message has been edited. Last edited by: TD3550, | |||
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| DRR Sportsman |
TD3550 you may be sorry you commented! I just sent you a PM with a few questions if you don’t mind... Billy Duhs - BD104X@gmail.com | |||
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Bracket Talk Bracket Talk Forum Tech Talk - by Abruzzi Can of worms - Oil Question
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