quote:

Originally posted by HS professor:

quote:

Do you think there was a bad batch or generally for the 2 years they were just not made well. So sonic test is a must, but with their reputation seems like it's money not well spent.

Who really knows ??? Over the years I've just started paying attention to the little details and my stuff is a little faster and lasts a bit longer. A Dart block is the shyt, but comes with a 40lb penalty. I think for 600-800 hp a good reasonably thick block will last just fine, anything over that and aftermarket would be my choice.
In my experience a thinner block will run fine but lose ring seal quicker and ultimately slow and need a freshen sooner in a bracket combo.
I would think any good machinest/builder would sonic test an oem block before boring so they can offset bore the cylinders to maintain as muck thickness in the critical areas for a performance build.
I've seen people use "concrete" also, I've never done this but I would assume done correctly would stiffen things up too.

I've seen Ed's old Chevelle run for years, it ran real good. I'd really like to see how Mike Rietow's engines actually perform in a real car, his dyno numbers seem a bit unrealistic to me but aything is possible.
Our good 460" engine went 142 mph @ 3400lbs how much power does that take ??? I'm sure there's people making much more power but we went well over 600 runs with ease with that combo.

You will, the third Gen is real, we're just waiting on some decent conditions. I think it's the highest HP hydraulic roller 496 on YouTube, at least that's what I'm told by its owner 10:1 compression.

Coming up 20,000 views YouTube, sounds rad for a hydraulic roller cam. Op might consider a Hydraulic roller, Crower has a few killers.

My "rule of thumb" was always if it had a fuel pump mounting boss it would take a 4.280 bore no problem. BUT if the customer was worried about it, I was always happy to make the $90 to sonic check it.
A "max" effort big block ALWAYS got sonic checked just because you absolutely want to know what you're starting with. 15-1 comp ratio and 8000-8500 big inch engines WILL find the weak spot(s) lol. Rarely had wall thickness issues, but even if it did I could usually correct it with a slight offset bore.
Does your block have the 1/2 pipe thread h0le over the oil filter? (meaning it's a real 4bolt main, not a converted 2bolt)

yes it does have the large 1/2" plug, but ALL #10069286 454's are 4 bolt they didn't make a 2 bolt with that block.

Mark Jones (VortecPro) probably has as much experience with factory iron as anybody, he's not a big fan of that block. Too bad you're a ways away, I just snagged a -289 block...

The modern CNC block machining centers have the ability to "touch off" and locate/verify all the block dimensions

I have zero experience with one of these machines but drool at their capabilties

Factory blocks can be so far off you'd not believe it. Core shift and crazy ways of locating things to machine them

One prime example is BB iron heads and valve guides not centered ! Try replacing a guide that's off a mile from the seat with an on center knockin guide ! Seen it many times

How about a small block so far off line at the main centerline that when you go to grind a little clearance for rods using a stroker crank it becomes evident the main and cam tunnel is offset a lot !! Been there, done that. Had to use different rods to gain clearance

The front cam journal face can show how far off a factory block s just by looking a that

I sonic tested and hardness tested just about every Chevy Big and Small block that wasfor race use. Core shift was very common and finding good blocks that were hard and had decent thrust wall thickness was not easy and that was 30+ years ago

Earlier BB's were usually decent and .030" over was no problem......060" over also usually ok but beyond that was iffy.... .100" over and .125" over was not a great idea unless the block was soniced and maybe half fill it with the grout we used before Hard Block and Moroso filler came along

800+ hp out of a 466 wth gm heads and a dominator was what we saw more than once on our dyno.....

One guy had a fairly heavy Vega and ran S/C with one of those engines. He ran 8.90's flat out and another good friend ran the same kind of numbers with a similar engine in a 3rd gen Camaro around 2400-2500lbs...7000-7500 rpm.......

I ran 9.20's at 146-148 with a couple different cars and .030 over engines.....GM Al heads.....Probably 2500lbs going down the track....

I don't know any shops with a machine that can check your block using the CNC "touch off" that is possible....

I do know that Alan Prusiensky ( Mopar Pro Stock ) just got a NEWEN and that's a heck of a trick piece of equipment......His place is 5 minutes from here where I work....He does have a diamond hone also I think.....

This modern equipment costs a fortune......

Charlie Weston told me a number of years ago he spent more on 1 machine and all the tooling than he did on every other machine he had for the previous 25 years...He spent weeks with the demo guy learning how to use it.....and he has a lot of machines !!!

quote:

Originally posted by HS professor:

quote:

Do you think there was a bad batch or generally for the 2 years they were just not made well. So sonic test is a must, but with their reputation seems like it's money not well spent.

Who really knows ??? Over the years I've just started paying attention to the little details and my stuff is a little faster and lasts a bit longer. A Dart block is the shyt, but comes with a 40lb penalty. I think for 600-800 hp a good reasonably thick block will last just fine, anything over that and aftermarket would be my choice.
In my experience a thinner block will run fine but lose ring seal quicker and ultimately slow and need a freshen sooner in a bracket combo.
I would think any good machinest/builder would sonic test an oem block before boring so they can offset bore the cylinders to maintain as muck thickness in the critical areas for a performance build.
I've seen people use "concrete" also, I've never done this but I would assume done correctly would stiffen things up too.

I've seen Ed's old Chevelle run for years, it ran real good. I'd really like to see how Mike Rietow's engines actually perform in a real car, his dyno numbers seem a bit unrealistic to me but aything is possible.
Our good 460" engine went 142 mph @ 3400lbs how much power does that take ??? I'm sure there's people making much more power but we went well over 600 runs with ease with that combo.

Ed lost a block to a cracked main at one point
I had one on the floor.....4 bolt and we used that one next....never checked anything other than visually
I don't recall what casting but it was an earlier block...
That one went with the car I believe....I did a freshen up on it before it went over seas IIRC....

I started running 454's in 1986 when I blasted the last of my low buck small blocks....I had 3 engines at one time and killed every one. All basically stock low buck junk....

Switched to BB power and in all those years I never puked a BB.....burnt up a bearing or two and torched a crank from a broken oil pump but that was it from 1986 to 2021 !

Stock block or Dart.....never killed a block.....

quote:

Originally posted by SCDIV1:
The modern CNC block machining centers have the ability to "touch off"

it's a cnc and machinist term NOT an engine building or builders term as I stated.

I have the machines and tooling to probe a block but my mills are always running production so I have never done one here.

I have two really close friends who have CMM rooms that I could throw a block in if I wanted to also but only making 570-580 with my small block engines measuring manually and sonic testing has sufficed.

Call it what you want but I don't believe anyone said it was was a set in stone term nor that is was an engine builder's term. You can call it whatever you want. No reason to throw a fit about it.

not throwing a fit, just stating the truth, it's NOT a term used by engine builders, rather a term used by one here in a failed attempt to advise as to how to qualify a block for use in a bracket engine build.

quote:

Originally posted by 1320racer:

quote:

Originally posted by SCDIV1:
The modern CNC block machining centers have the ability to "touch off"

it's a cnc and machinist term NOT an engine building or builders term as I stated.

Oh face it, ya had no idea what I was referring to. Wrong again. I gave you the explanation. You can skirt or dance all you want.
Better do your homework with a state if the art machine shop equipped with RMC, Rottler or whoever NC.

Instead of trying to belittle me or prove me wrong you stirred up bs. All you had to say is; what do you mean by ( touch off). I would have gladly explained and moved on but no…. LMS kicks in as big man on the board..
All of the guys here are better than that.

if,n you are really into touch off ....
https://www.mmsonline.com/colu...ns-during-touch-offs

as I said, it's a term used when referencing a cnc machine NOT a term used by engine builders and the poster that used it FAILED in his attempt to use this term in an effort to advise as to how to qualify an engine block to be used for a race engine build.

quote:

Originally posted by 67TSCHEVY2:
if,n you are really into touch off ....
https://www.mmsonline.com/colu...ns-during-touch-offs

Exactly, it depends on how or who’s NC machine the see's zero.

Thanks 67

It's all relative to how accurate you want or need things to be

In the 1960's I worked at a low paying place using an ECM process to make holes in blades that were used in jet engines. Material so hard ordinary drilling is not going to happen....Electro Chemical Machining using acid and DC voltage thru insulated titanium electrodes

They also did experimental work and EDM..

The plates for my machine were drilled my my German buddy in the high end machine shop

His machine could hold a tolerance to 4 millionths of an inch he told me once and he used magnifying equipment to visually do hole locations in carbon plates....

1968 nothing but by hand at the time

I made 2.00 an hour !!! Worked nights !

Worked my a-s-s off and did 52 pieces one night with ZERO scrap which was really good....come raise time I got .10cents.....

Quit after maybe 2 years and went to work in a gas station making way more $$ and never looked back......

I'm slow right now so have time to tell these useless life stories ....LOL

This message has been edited. Last edited by: SCDIV1,

quote:

Originally posted by SCDIV1:

I'm slow right now so have time to tell these useless life stories ....LOL

Don't stop telling them though.

OK..

At the same place in the "salt dept" I spent some time chemically cutting pockets in large one piece blades. About 5-6 feet in diameter.

Some sort of very high grade stainless alloy or ??. That was basically just to see if it could be done and the electrodes were made of a copper and was nothing but trouble

The part was for a jet engine slated for the USA's version of an SST.....Like the Concord and it was a project in conjunction with G.E..

Once the European combine got the Concord to fruition the USA scrapped our version

We also had a dept that did some EDM work on M-60 machine gun parts for the nearby Military-Civilian arsenal

Had to build plywood surrounds for the machines so only the operators could see what the parts were and the machine operation

After I left an experimental job was being run in the EDM dept.....an explosion occurred in the machine and the operator was burned so badly he later died

Not the first time management made some dangerous decisions/operations in that place.....

I was more than happy not to be there anymore....NAZI b-a-s-t-i-ds....and I ain't exaggerating there....

quote:

Originally posted by 1320racer:
as I said, it's a term used when referencing a cnc machine NOT a term used by engine builders and the poster that used it FAILED in his attempt to use this term in an effort to advise as to how to qualify an engine block to be used for a race engine build.

Again, I know it breaks your little heart to be w r o n g.. .Just because you haven’t heard the term does not mean it is not used often. So if you don’t work with state of the art shops then no, you you would not hear it. There are several here that knew exactly what I meant.
Every shop out here has NC and touch/pressure zero probes, the guys who program the nc are the same guys who build HP! The RMC locates off the crank, cam and dowels for all centerlines. It measures deck also. It then bores the lifter holes for bronze and also bores the block. It’s as close to exact as he can get. Same as the Rottler Equipment.
WRE, S&S Automotive, Pannella and Joey Gross. All have NC machines…. There are tons in the Mid West and the East Coast too.


This is what I said;
Have a good shop do a touch off, checks bore to dowel align, cam / crank front to rear and lifters.
If your machine shop can’t do it, find one that can.
It’s worth the money! Just went through this.

It meant NC block check. I just went through this! The 2/4/6/8 bores were tilted out .028. Domes hit the ramp for the spark plug. This has never happened to me! Rick Santos verified it after I laid out a graph of dowel to bore measurements. I came up with .030 average out. His NC said .028. That’s enough to f up a good motor! So if you aren’t measuring you will never know.
Start with a good base and build.

Thanks everyone for their opinions on my engine block. I'm going to continue with the necessary testing. I know that the decision making is totally up to me and no one else. If I were building an engine that would be chasing Jeff Jackson to the finish line I would go in a different direction. So I will let you all know how it turns out. If I use the "California touch off" which sounds like a precision way to do things. I will let know. Bob

I like the "California touch off", the old #1 B1TCH couldn't even get that right. She had it as "touch up" originally, what a dumb B1TCH.