My 565bbc on alcohol has been killing flexplates. I have the ignition and starter tied together meaning the starter won't run without the ignition on. Years ago we used to get the engine rolling over and then turn the ignition on but with the high torque gear starters of today I didn't really think that was a thing anymore.

I have 25 degrees of retard dialed into the box during cranking (38 degrees locked once running) but it doesn't seem to make any difference. The kicks can range from significant enough to stop the engine from cranking to kicking back through the intake while cranking. I don't touch the throttle before cranking and rarely need to touch the throttle to get the engine running.

This seems to be more of an issue on a cool engine than once it's hot but this time of year in the upper Midwest it's hard to retain any heat.

Distributor phasing was ok last I checked but I'll look again.

Any other ideas or should I separate the starter and ignition and go back to rolling the engine over before turning the ignition on?

On alky with cool temps squirt some 93 octane in the carb on the 1st start up

Call Mezieres and speak with Jerry. He’s one of the very best in dealing with this

Your timing retard while cranking is excessive imho. -15* or less would be more appropriate. Using start retard in Grid allows for programming less retard as rpm increases.

Curious.. what MSD ignition are you using? If 7al3, is it the older red model?

your ign needs to be separated for sure,too much retard ,8 is enough.its possibly lean during the startup.pump it two or three then spin a few rounds,pump again then spin a couple and turn on ign while spinning.be sure battery and cables are sufficient

First off most important get the 139 tooth Flexplate. Never broke a tooth off with one of those. Then try to find out why it is kicking back, I think your start retard is causing more problems than it is worth. I do not use any retard on start, seems to me like 25* is way too much. Several people here said the start retard will kill the flexplate and starters. You phased your distributor, that is good but now look at the phasing on it when you pull 25* timing out of it. Now it is firing 25* from where you phased it and that may be causing part of problem.

My motors run at 28*-30* total timing are you sure it needs 38* timing?

If it is backfiring through the carb it is usually a LEAN backfire. When I first went to alcohol injection I killed a few flexplates then around 2012? I went to 139 tooth deal and no problems since. I also later added a primer system to help stop the lean backfire. If you are running injection and build a primer system it takes a while to get right squirt before firing it up. Mine was very sensitive not enough and it backfire, too much and it would flood. But I suspect with that much start retard you may? be firing a different cylinder?

I would 1. Get 139 tooth flexplate. 2. Get rid of start retard. 3. Make sure it is primed good before firing it up. If you have a carb pump it, if you run injection you may need to squirt some fuel or make a primer system.

Sounds like a lot of start retard to me, I would try 10*

And to Curly’s point, my 555s like the start retard. Couple years ago I was troubleshooting a different issue and removed the start retard. It turned into an ornery sumb*tch to start. Kicking back, wanting to backfire, etc. Every engine is different.

quote:

Originally posted by markemark:
Your timing retard while cranking is excessive imho. -15* or less would be more appropriate. Using start retard in Grid allows for programming less retard as rpm increases.

Curious.. what MSD ignition are you using? If 7al3, is it the older red model?

I agree way too much timing. I bet you have so much its phased or jumping to the wrong post - big or small distributor cap? I have the same 139 tooth flywheel, several different starters and even motors for 10+ years on 555-582 on alcohol.

I pump mine 6 full pumps - let it set for few seconds and crank it - hit ignition. Usually starts if not I pump few more times, let sit and it typically fires up. I have a primer plus - but broke it this week and the above is what I did. Starting in 40-50* air.

The kickback is motor likely firing on incorrect cylinder. Drill hole in side of cap with rotor pointing exactly at #1, go thru drilled hole with white paint marker and make dot on side of rotor. Start the car and with timing light turn cap until you see the white dot centered, this ensures at your full timing your phased correct. Then retard timing maybe 6-8* for <1200 rpm. Putting you at ~28-30*. Car should start no problem. With your high retard piston is too far in hole, no compression, and fighting itself. Or likely as mentioned jumping to the wrong post on cap all together.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ski_dwn_it,

IMO, starter first & then ignition is just how you start a race car. I don't see any reason why you'd do it any other way. In 25 years of using cheap flexplates & good starters I have only broken teeth twice but I switched to a 139 HOP Ultimate Big Dog last year and I don't see it happening again as the flywheel is beefy and the starter has plenty of power.

With my setup on I will pump the throttle a few times why spinning engine without ignition on and then count to 10. Spin engine over and throw the ignition and it starts. I found the start retard was making mine harder to start and have since stopped using it. 582 with an alcohol carb. I believe windmilling the engine with ignition off when cold is a must.

The start retard is doing more harm than good...
I demolished a couple flex plates and trashed starters including a 139 starter armature

I was trying every different starting routine..

Bottom line was ROTOR PHASING ! When you retard the timing the rotor phasing will be far enough off to cause a crossfire in the cap.

I was running a Terminator with a Primer Plus and had my primer plus fuel pump wired to retard the timing during cranking.

Eventually after trying every different starting routine I got the rotor phasing right on and used NO RETARD and could start with no issue

Once I changed to a GAS carb I could start with the ignition on during cranking and never had a problem.

A 565 at 15 to 1 and a 584 at 15-1

A 139 tooth flex plate and HOP starters....many many starts with no kickbacks...

ROTOR PHASING is at the top of the list and I always had the big diameter cap.

I program the timing to be around 28-30 degrees of timing when cranking on alky and never have any trouble. Used to have all kinds of trouble when using the feature that pulls 25

Agree on way too much timing being pulled. It is misfiring on another cylinder.

I had issues on my 14+:1 SBC until I put the crank trigger on. 38 degrees and no timing pulled.... starts like a stock engine...

Clark

First thing - check cranking voltage at the starter, if you don't know what the crank voltage is you have no idea of what to fix. You must use a multi-meter at the starter post. Do not go off you voltmeter on the dash.

Check voltage at the battery post on the starter while cranking with ignition off. If you are on 12 volts you want to see at least 10 volts or more. If you don't then you have a cable or battery issue. If you are on 16 volts then you should see over 12 volts.

You should be able to start the engine with the ignition on and no start retard.

The biggest issue customer have is low voltage at the starter while cranking, and that is normally caused by a bad battery or bad cables. If your cables are over 10 years old then change them and if on 12 volts use 1-0 fine strand cable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLvd-5wIHtY

^^^^^^^^ Do this test first. But if less than 10v cranking don’t assume bad cable. Do a voltage drop test across the master disconnect and also from disconnect to battery to confirm the battery cable feeding disconnect and disconnect are not the source of the voltage drop. Master disconnects failing is not an uncommon problem.

Start retard yes. I fought start issues for two outings! Found carbon track on two towers brand new cap rotor ( big caps). I looked at it several times before I put on readers - and bam there it was!

1leg(Jerry) and Markemark, 2 of the very best in business and both pretty say the same thing

Install a primer plus system and get a 139 tooth flex plate/starter and don’t look back

quote:

Meziere Tech

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrDlXn-RYcM

quote:

Originally posted by markemark:

quote:

Meziere Tech

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrDlXn-RYcM

Thanks Markemark