Anyone have any real world experience with running Methanol & EFI? I know some use both, but are there specific pitfalls to watch for? I'm assuming that ensuring the necessary volume of fuel with an electric pump(s)would be more of an issue than anything...but that's just a WAG at this point.

This would theoretically be using a Holley Dominator based EFI system.

I know folks have had deadly consistent results using MFI and methanol, and one would assume that this could be duplicated with EFI as well.

Any feedback appreciated!

I have been doing it for about 15 years. Used the Fast XFI and now for the past 4-5 seasons Holley Dominator.

You can run it in "dumb" mode kind of like MFI or with a bunch of corrections. I have run both ways and had the best results NA with no corrections. Now with the Procharger I have some corrections activated.

For years the thinking was to run the fuel with no lube and that's what I have been doing all this time. Recently, I noticed the high-end injectors saying to use lube.

Yea I would go belt drive.

As far as it being better than carb or MFI, there's plenty of good cars with each. Converter, tires, car setup IMO more important than how the fuel gets in.

You have one of the most knowedageable EFI guys nearby in Tennessee - TJ Tracey 901-275-2500.

Thanks for the feedback Greg! I might have to give Mr. Tracy a call, or corner him at a track sometime and pick his brain.

How many O2 sensors are you running on your setup? Are you running one for each cylinder, or just one for each bank?

I converted my combo to EFI using a Megasquirt ECU this last winter. It was said that it would play well with my MSD7 digital, and my experience was that it didn't. So I finally caved and bought some LS take off coils. And of course, I have been fighting an issue, which I think boils down to one of the coils being bad. I have had very little time to test at the track.
As far as methanol goes....that's my fuel of choice. And that affects the choice of injectors and fuel pump, and really that's about it. There are electric fuel pumps that are up to the task. I am using my Ron's vane pump, and actually that's about the one thing that has worked flawlessly. I thought it would be a bear to start, and even with that fuel pump I don't need a primer or anything.
The Megasquirt is an affordable ECU with a LOT of capabilities. And those limitless capabilities are what have made this really hard. That ECU will work with all kinds of cars and equipment. And thus, the setup has been a real PIA to get right. The software has just taken a lot more patience than what I generally have. LOL. We will get there.

A friend is going to do some testing with a larger Holley throttle body injection setup for dominator replacements. It looks slick, and the install is a very small fraction of the plumbing and wiring that is involved with the multiport systems. The capabilities may not be as great as an all in one multiport injection and ignition system. But it sure as he11 would be easier to get running right I suspect. And I'm pretty sure at the end of the day it is a far sight cheaper too.

I have wanted to try EFI for a long time, and as I age, I realize it had better be now, or it's going to be really difficult for me. We will see how this ends up.

quote:

Originally posted by Maxx Levell:
Thanks for the feedback Greg! I might have to give Mr. Tracy a call, or corner him at a track sometime and pick his brain.

How many O2 sensors are you running on your setup? Are you running one for each cylinder, or just one for each bank?

Thanks Bucky! I currently use one of the EFI Throttle body systems myself with E85, and it works pretty well. I got it to "get my feet wet" with the whole EFI transition. I'm now convinced I want to go the Multi port route and get the additional datalogging capabilities and such that the more refined system can offer. And, as you mentioned, the methanol capability with the better system has me thinking about giving it a try. That isn't an option with the system I currently have.

quote:

Originally posted by Maxx Levell:

quote:

Originally posted by Maxx Levell:
Thanks for the feedback Greg! I might have to give Mr. Tracy a call, or corner him at a track sometime and pick his brain.

How many O2 sensors are you running on your setup? Are you running one for each cylinder, or just one for each bank?

Thanks Bucky! I currently use one of the EFI Throttle body systems myself with E85, and it works pretty well. I got it to "get my feet wet" with the whole EFI transition. I'm now convinced I want to go the Multi port route and get the additional datalogging capabilities and such that the more refined system can offer. And, as you mentioned, the methanol capability with the better system has me thinking about giving it a try. That isn't an option with the system I currently have.

Well you may ready for that level of fun then. LOL.
As far as systems...
The megasquirt can do more than I would ever ask of it. But this install has taken way longer than I think it should have. May have been me to a great extent. But customer service is mostly by email, and you wait a day to figure out they haven't answered what you need, so the next day you email again, and wait another 24 hours for the response to a question that you had no idea was more complicated than you thought. Plus, they have very little direct experience with methanol drag racing applications from what I can tell. And....you start pretty much at scratch for a tuneup. They don't have any that will get you close. And the auto cal may work well for street cars that you can tool along down the street in and play with it. But that isn't the world we live in.

There is a Comsync brand, which seems to be more or less a package deal. It sounds like it is terribly expensive, but also sounds like they send you everything and the owner can walk you through the install from start to finish.

Holley is the old stand by, and there seem to be a lot of them in drag racing applications. More expensive than Megasquirt, but not by a long shot. And some of their techs can be helpful.

I have no experience with the BS3 or FAST systems. So nothing to feedback there either. In fact, the only system I have installed is the MS3 pro ultimate from Megasquirt.

Keep in mind if you are buying an ecu by itself, that this is a smaller part of the overall cost of the entire project. Take into consideration the tech support and who locally may be able to lend a hand with tuning. there have been days I would have paid another $1000 to get a unit that came with a voice on the phone when I needed it.

Don't underestimate the cost of the injectors. They tend to get a bit more expensive when you go with methanol. Not wierd to start at $500 for injectors, and some are much more. Sensors can add up quicker than I could have believed.

By far the hardest part for me has been software. I almost enjoyed the wiring, cuz I'm weird like that. Same with plumbing. I have no software patience though. Once I have learned it, things are much better.

Oh and Greg has way more experience and knowledge than I ever will about EFI for sure. I probably should have asked more advice from him and followed it more than I did.

Greg,
Dumb mode. Does that mean you leave the widebands out of the equation and just set parameters via best guess and adjust from there?

The new Holley EFI systems (HP and Dominator ECU's) come with very nice software. It is available to download from their website for free, so anyone can get it and play with it.

Plenty of help to be found all over the place.

Running Methanol with it is no issue. Your entire fuel system needs to be capable of it though, the EFI doesn't care.

I have not tried it yet myself. Would have to get rid of my two paper filters and get metal, the glue used to hold the paper filters together will come apart.

Not sure if the foam in my fuel cell is good with alky, another thing to think about.

Not sure about the aluminum rails, some people say to hard anodize them inside and out, mine are untouched. Would not be cool to start corroding them on the inside and not know it's happening.

Other than that, injectors will be about double the size as the same engine running on race fuel. I currently run 60 lb/hr making 750ish. Used the same injector making 1000hp with nitrous for years. A set of 120's are about the same cost, so buy the correct size to start with and you'll be fine. Make sure your fuel pump can be used with alky and has enough volume at the EFI pressure, I always run my stuff 55-60psi.

Use the largest throttle body you can fit (cfm-wise) and make sure the secondaries are staggered, you don't want all four blades moving at once. You can't feed an EFI engine too much air!

Thanks for all the feedback! When I went to the TB style EFI, I ran all new 1/2" PTFE line.

I currently have an A1000 fuel pump, and am assuming I could get another one of those and have enough volume.? Current system runs at 53 psi, and has done fine as far as the pressure and volume. I know the methanol is going to be a completely different animal though.

As I have no immediate experience with methanol, I'm not sure if the 1/2" line is adequate per se. My gut feeling is that it would be ok with 2 of the A1000's feeding it...but won't argue with anyone who says it's not sufficient.

How much power do you make? The A1000 is a decent pump, I use it in my wives car. I have a Weldon in mine.

Probably 650-700.

quote:

Originally posted by Maxx Levell:
Thanks for the feedback Greg! I might have to give Mr. Tracy a call, or corner him at a track sometime and pick his brain.

How many O2 sensors are you running on your setup? Are you running one for each cylinder, or just one for each bank?

I use one O2 going into the EFI and a separate O2 going into the Racepak.
TJ is a regular bracket racer, runs his EFI cars most every week and has tuned all kinds of hig-end cars. Won the Million back in the day - good guy.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Koehler:
Greg,
Dumb mode. Does that mean you leave the widebands out of the equation and just set parameters via best guess and adjust from there?

Correct. Also, water & air temp and barometer corrections disabled. You have a base fuel table witch is a grid of RPMs and you specify how many lbs/hr you want. It hits that RPM and puts in that much fuel.

With newer systems, like Holley, Big Stuff, FAST, probably even the Megasquirt, all have wide band sensors, at least one.

On a new install, use the wideband to help you dial it in. I can take a new combo to the track and make a pass with just some basic tuning in the driveway/pits. The wideband on the new Holley stuff can correct that fast! Tell it what AFR you want at various RPM's and Loads (I like Alpha-N myself), and let it rip!

I use the air and water temp sensors to help with cold-start, that's it.

Once the engine is tuned, I limit the widebands correction to 5% or less at full throttle.

This stuff is EASY, just buy something that is SUPPORTED and through someone that will talk to you on the phone! Buy from Jegs or Summit, you better have a local friend that can help answer questions, you will have A LOT!

I do not sell the stuff myself, I only install and tune for people local. I have a friend that likes to tune via the internet! Uses team viewer so he can take control of someones laptop from wherever he is, and remote tune the car. I'm too lazy, have enough local stuff to keep my busy.

Good luck!

Excellent advice...and advice I'll be taking lol. I'm tech savvy, and am not afraid of the laptop or the data...I just don't have enough experience yet with deciphering what it all means. If I have access to someone who can talk me through some things...I'm going to take advantage of it lol. Just from the basic datalogging stuff I've got on the system I have now, I can see that there is a goldmine of data to be had. There's nothing inherently wrong with the system I currently have, I'm just ready to start piecing together the required parts to make the upgrade and get into it a little deeper.

I sure appreciate all of the comments and feedback on this thread so far!

Maybe Gregg or Mike can answer a curiosity for me: On my old mechanical FI, I could pull the fuel bypass at idle and as you leaned it out, the rpm would climb, and egt's get hotter. I haven't found that sweet spot with the EFI. I lean it and lean it and pretty soon the idle just falls apart and it stops running. Never does the rpm climb like I am used to.

I also have one cylinder that is about stone cold during a run. At idle I can pull the plug wire on that one with little effect. I figured I would swap that coil to a different cylinder and see if the cold cylinder follows the move. I also think that I have been pig fat....the egt's show that as well. But the o2 sensor has been showing very lean. I have been pretty sharp at tuning MFI systems in the past. But starting with a problem has me scratching my head a little. Could be plug wire, coil, wiring. I have the coils mounted in this dragster near the block. Maybe they are getting a little warmer than they like. Although I doubt that it's warmer than under a closed hood.
I am not auto tuning, and frankly that's because I don't trust the o2 readings I am getting.
Any other suggestions? I don't get many chances to work on it. So when I do, I like to try everything I can.

Bucky, widebands can "lie" to you. I have seen when people get an engine too fat, the wideband shows it as dead-lean. Can't tell you why, only that I have seen it, and the plugs and pipes back that up. Far, far from lean!

Why do you have one cold cylinder? Well, as you said, swap the coil and wire with another cylinder, see if it follows. I guess you are using a system capable of driving 8 individual coils. If it is still a problem, swap the injector with another cylinder. Make sure you put some oil on those o-rings so they don't get nicked. EFI fuel pressure can make a mess, and a HUGE fire!

What kind of system are you running, and what are you using for crank and cam position?

Alky rule #1: When in doubt richen it up first.

Bucky, Could your leaning it out indicate that you are over center on the tune or at least at idle perhaps?

What I am getting at is that too little fuel will show low egts the same as too much.

I was thinking of doing the same with the injectors and am glad to have some affirmation.
Cam sensor on the belt drive and toothed wheel on the crank with a hall effect sensor on both.

I'm pretty sure I was ignoring the too rich condition as the fuel consumption was high and the catch can was getting alky every run. But I was believing o2 sensor instead.

The friend I have that tested his Holley Throttle body system on his super comp dragster today made one partial pass, then one full pass, 8.85 or so. On the stop of course. It's not supposed to be that easy! He is on race gas.

quote:

Originally posted by Bucky:
I was thinking of doing the same with the injectors and am glad to have some affirmation.
Cam sensor on the belt drive and toothed wheel on the crank with a hall effect sensor on both.

I'm pretty sure I was ignoring the too rich condition as the fuel consumption was high and the catch can was getting alky every run. But I was believing o2 sensor instead.

The friend I have that tested his Holley Throttle body system on his super comp dragster today made one partial pass, then one full pass, 8.85 or so. On the stop of course. It's not supposed to be that easy! He is on race gas.

Dave is 100% correct up there. Too lean OR too rich will both show cold pipes.

Which trigger wheel are you using on the crank?

Is your friend running port fuel injection or a throttle body setup with the injectors up top? If running port fuel injection, Alpha-N or Speed Density?

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Beck:

quote:

Originally posted by Bucky:
I was thinking of doing the same with the injectors and am glad to have some affirmation.
Cam sensor on the belt drive and toothed wheel on the crank with a hall effect sensor on both.

I'm pretty sure I was ignoring the too rich condition as the fuel consumption was high and the catch can was getting alky every run. But I was believing o2 sensor instead.

The friend I have that tested his Holley Throttle body system on his super comp dragster today made one partial pass, then one full pass, 8.85 or so. On the stop of course. It's not supposed to be that easy! He is on race gas.

Dave is 100% correct up there. Too lean OR too rich will both show cold pipes.

Which trigger wheel are you using on the crank?

Is your friend running port fuel injection or a throttle body setup with the injectors up top? If running port fuel injection, Alpha-N or Speed Density?

Throttle body, and not sure. But he used a stop under the blades last night, and right out of the box that thing was flat lined and smooth on the stop. That makes me think it is just using the map sensor for the table. But I'm still a little ignorant on this subject.