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DRR Sportsman
Picture of C Hodge
posted
I bought a Ron’s 1475 terminator for my SBC 421. After talking to some guys here I talked to Ron’s and changed from 01/2 pump to an 0 pump. Per Ron’s I put 32 nozzles and 84 bypass in and went to Huntsville and the car was deadly. Slowing first pass to 2nd pass Saturday and Sunday then only moving 004 in Et both Saturday and Sunday after the first pass I thought I’m a touch fat and needed 86 pill. Since Huntsville the car has been crazy and won’t back a number up. Last week at piedmont with the same tune as Huntsville I’m 6.17, 6.18, 6.17, 6.18 60’ only moves 002. So I’m thinking lean. Changed to 82 pill and went 6.169, 6.169 then 6.155 ripping throttle twice. Talked to Ron’s and they wanted me to remove the -8 and put -9 plugs, raise timing 35 to 38-40. And lean to 90-92 pill. Did that and the car is no better. 6.19, 6.17. So I leaned from 90 to 92 and went 6.15 then 6.17
 
Posts: 235 | Location: Tennessee | Registered: December 18, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of C Hodge
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Then leaned to 98 bypass and went 6.212, 6.222 so I know that’s to lean. Anyone had an issue like this ? I’m going to check filter, bypass line and vent. If nothing there I’m going to knock the poppet valve out of the bypass fitting
 
Posts: 235 | Location: Tennessee | Registered: December 18, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
Picture of Big Steve
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I agree on the -9 plugs but not on the 38-40 timing and 90-92 pill, your putting allot of heat in the cylinders. I would go back to 33-35* max and your 84 pill as a base line. try some different nozzles. Going smaller will raise the pressure and atomize the fuel better and going larger will lower the pressure and atomize it less. Do you know what your fuel pressure is going down the track?
 
Posts: 2440 | Location: Moving back to the door side | Registered: April 30, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
Picture of Big Steve
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Not knocking Rons tune up but when I first put a Terminator on my 565 it ran the best when I did the opposite of what was recommended but every engine is different. I settled on a 80/38 Tune up and never changed it for 5 years
 
Posts: 2440 | Location: Moving back to the door side | Registered: April 30, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
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Are u sure it's a fuel system issue? Many fall into the trap of chasing the tune with mfi because it easy to change. The extra torque of the alky injection could be exposing a traction issue.

How much does the car weigh with driver?

What were the weather conditions for first weekend out in Huntville? What are the conditions for the questionable race weekends?

I run 421 also and it has a 1475 terminator. Granted it isn't the garden variety 23* headed small block (it has 15* Brodix -12 heads) but the point is I have personal expereince with it along with experience of many other combos.

I run -8 plugs. I don't think the problem is the heat range of your plugs.

Timing is dependent on the combustion chamber shape and the piston dome. Would need to know more details to help with timing. But generally 23* headed bigger smallblocks with aftermarked aluminum heads like in the 33-36 timing. Less if using shallow valve angle heads with efficient chambers and flat top style pistons.

Scott

This message has been edited. Last edited by: 358T,
 
Posts: 1838 | Location: Illinois | Registered: August 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Big Steve:
Not knocking Rons tune up but when I first put a Terminator on my 565 it ran the best when I did the opposite of what was recommended but every engine is different. I settled on a 80/38 Tune up and never changed it for 5 years


I remember when u switched Wink. Your final tune-up is not that much different than the baseline tune-up. Also when you first switched the engine was smaller. It picked you up over your very good running gas setup and it was more consistent.

Scott
 
Posts: 1838 | Location: Illinois | Registered: August 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
Picture of Big Steve
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quote:
Originally posted by 358T:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Steve:
Not knocking Rons tune up but when I first put a Terminator on my 565 it ran the best when I did the opposite of what was recommended but every engine is different. I settled on a 80/38 Tune up and never changed it for 5 years


I remember when u switched Wink. Your final tune-up is not that much different than the baseline tune-up. Also when you first switched the engine was smaller. It picked you up over your very good running gas setup and it was more consistent.

Scott


Your right, when I first put it on I had a 505 and took a few weekends to find the happy spot but only ran a 1/2 season with it, it went from 5.8x with a gas carb to 5.6x with injection in the Camaro, even had a electric hi speed on it to fine tune it. When I went to the 565 I switched the nozzles from 35-38 I think and not much else other than a small pill adjustment and removed the lean out When I took the 565 out of the Camaro and put in in the dragster it was running 5.2x and then 4.7x in the dragster and never changed the tune up. Still have the engine complete with the fuel system sitting in my shop
 
Posts: 2440 | Location: Moving back to the door side | Registered: April 30, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post



DRR Pro
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I have a 4” 1435 cfm toilet on my 388, run a 0 black gear pump with 35 nozzles and 58 pill and no high speed bypass. I use -9 NGK plugs and a Primer Plus system that the engine runs on when not on the racing surface.

Although I have run the timing as high a 40* it seems to be the most consistent given weather changes at 34.5*. I presently have the engine timed to 36* and reduce it to 34.5* when over 3000 rpm using MSD Grid.

One thing that hurts the consistency of my car is not having the water temp at minimum of 170* on the starting line. I have the BV adjusted so that it’ll maintain 175*with the fan off. I also monitor oil temp and my car won’t move out of the pits until I see 140*oil temp. I use 10w30 Penngrade.

You’d be surprised how long it takes to get the oil to 140* if you don’t presently monitor it. My system is 6 qts.

I was at Piedmont last weekend and only made 5 passes in the 2 day event. I used more 93 octane fuel in the primer system than I did methanol. My car varied .004 in 60’ and .008 in ET the entire weekend.
 
Posts: 2488 | Location: 53056 | Registered: December 30, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
Picture of SCDIV1
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Temperature is very important running alcohol.

Carb or injection and the engine needs to be warm...170 is a good number to shoot for at least !

Set your BV as lean as possible at idle and I used an EGT to set it as well.

Pull your fuel shutoff to lean it out and get the temp up before making a run if you don't have a primer plus...

With a Primer plus it's not an issue.....without it, it can be....
 
Posts: 2733 | Location: Where ever I am, I'm here and it's me | Registered: March 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Top Comp
Picture of Curly1
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On my 454 SBC and on my old 434 it liked the timing 28-30* Really does not slow down much at 38* but peak was 28. I think many people run way too much timing.
I like to go into burnout box around 160* and 175 on starting line.
I tend to run my barrel valve lean because it burns whole lot more fuel when fat. Problem is when air gets good you need to fatten barrel valve some or it may spit and stumble.

Also I would check and clean your nozzles. When I remove them to clean I am careful not to turn it over until I can see in there and make sure it is clean. I run TWO large filters coming out of fuel cell and one smaller one up near barrel valve. Still get a little trash once in a while. Lucky I have 8 O2 and it will show up if there is any issues. If it is completely plugged up will slow about .40 but if it is partially plugged it may only make .01 difference but will show up on logger.


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"Dunning-Kruger Effect"
-a type of Cognitive bias where people with little expertise or ability assume they have superior expertise or ability. This overestimation occurs as a result of the fact that they do not have enough knowledge to know they don't have enough knowledge.

Before you argue with someone ask yourself, "Is this person mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of a different perspective?" If not there is no point to argue.

4X NE2 CHAMPION. 2020 TDRA NE2 Champion
 
Posts: 4046 | Location: United States of Texas | Registered: April 02, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of C Hodge
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Scott the car weighs 3150 with me in it. I’m not saying your wrong on the traction issue but with the 60’ moving no more than 003 all day I don’t think I’m spinning down track. At most 700hp small block with a 33x16.5x15 tire I don’t see it spinning down track and a lot of the moving is 330 to 660. Weather at Huntsville was 43 to 55 degrees on Saturday and 57 to 66 degrees on Sunday. Weather at piedmont last week and Farmington today low 50s to low 60s so close on weather the 3 weeks I’ve ran the 0 pump. Not sure why they wanted more timing in the motor but I did try what they wanted and it’s no better. I just installed 31 nozzles and 70 bypass to see what it does tomorrow if the rain holds off. I’m thinking about changing the timing to 33 along with the nozzle and bypass change. Looks like this will be the last race of the year so I’m throwing everything but the kitchen sink at it trying to see if it helps
 
Posts: 235 | Location: Tennessee | Registered: December 18, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of C Hodge
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Also the heads are the old aluminum pro top line 23 degree heads and 14.1 compression
 
Posts: 235 | Location: Tennessee | Registered: December 18, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
Picture of Big Steve
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Do you know what your fuel pressure is during the run?
 
Posts: 2440 | Location: Moving back to the door side | Registered: April 30, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of C Hodge
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Steve I bought a new fuel psi sensor for my racepak dash but haven’t put it on yet so I don’t know what the pressure is. When I warm the car the first time I bring the engine to 190 and let it heat soak. I mostly use the primer plus to start the car and my leanout to warm the car. Pull out of the staging lanes at 160 stage around 165 and 170 at the strip.
 
Posts: 235 | Location: Tennessee | Registered: December 18, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post



DRR Sportsman
Picture of C Hodge
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Scott I’m all ears if you think the change I’ve made is wrong with the nozzles and pill. With the 01/2 pump the car worked the best with 31 nozzles and 98 bypass. Not what James recommended but what I found was best for the engine setup
 
Posts: 235 | Location: Tennessee | Registered: December 18, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
Picture of Big Steve
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quote:
Originally posted by C Hodge:
Steve I bought a new fuel psi sensor for my racepak dash but haven’t put it on yet so I don’t know what the pressure is. When I warm the car the first time I bring the engine to 190 and let it heat soak. I mostly use the primer plus to start the car and my leanout to warm the car. Pull out of the staging lanes at 160 stage around 165 and 170 at the strip.


Your warm up and stage procedure is perfect, don't change a thing. I only used the primer plus on 1st start up of the day and to burn the alky out of the cylinders when I am done for the day, just felt it mucked up the plugs too much to use during the day although many do.

I like tune up change your making, go with it and see how it runs and go from there

Get your fuel pressure sensor hooked up, knowing your fuel pressure with MFI is a great tuning tool. With most MFI systems 120-140psi is a good tuning window. My blower motor is happiest from 160-170
 
Posts: 2440 | Location: Moving back to the door side | Registered: April 30, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of C Hodge
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I should have already had it on the car. It’s been sitting in the garage for 6 weeks
 
Posts: 235 | Location: Tennessee | Registered: December 18, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Just a fyi. At Piedmont last Sunday initial engine start I had to idle at 1700 rpm for 12 minutes to get the oil temp to 140* while maintaining water temp at 180*. This also gets my trans temp to 115* just sitting. I don’t drive my car around or jack up.

With the 3 hr time period between 1st and 2nd rd the air temp dropped from 56 to 44* and altitude dropped 900’. It took over 5 minutes of idle to get the oil temp back to 140*before heading to 2nd rd staging.

As another stated, your engine water temp on the starting line is too low. 175*- 180* in this cooler weather is what I shoot for. I’ll see 180*- 182* at the 1/8. For me, if I leave the starting line at 160 – 165* my runs are inconsistent, even in 80*- 90* weather.
 
Posts: 2488 | Location: 53056 | Registered: December 30, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
Picture of Big Steve
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Hot or cold out I staged at 165-170 for years and car would print tickets all day. Pick a temp your comfortable with and stick to it. Your biggest obstacle will always be the track.
 
Posts: 2440 | Location: Moving back to the door side | Registered: April 30, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Top Comp
Picture of Curly1
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I also at first start of day lean it out to build heat at high idle until it is around 180* or so.

As for fuel pressure I have ran over 160 and right now it is down around 45 at finish line no difference in performance. It is all about getting the right pounds of fuel to air ratio. The motor does not care what pressure it goes in at. Atomization may be better at higher pressures and pump life may be better at lower pressures. Who knows but I do agree with keeping check of your fuel pressure. When I make a change on jet or nozzles it will show up on pressure.


https://postimg.cc/gallery/np3zpruo/
"Dunning-Kruger Effect"
-a type of Cognitive bias where people with little expertise or ability assume they have superior expertise or ability. This overestimation occurs as a result of the fact that they do not have enough knowledge to know they don't have enough knowledge.

Before you argue with someone ask yourself, "Is this person mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of a different perspective?" If not there is no point to argue.

4X NE2 CHAMPION. 2020 TDRA NE2 Champion
 
Posts: 4046 | Location: United States of Texas | Registered: April 02, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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