quote:

Originally posted by banjo:
My engine wanted the same timing on methanol as gas.

I also agree most run more timing than needed. Several years back, when I had the engine on the dyno, when I told my engine guy that the timing should be around 34, he laughed and said it should be in the 38 range. When we tried it, it lost power all the way through. This was also backed up on the track.

I made a timing curve based on the dyno numbers and where the engine made peak power at each timing point. In the car, there was no discernable gains in ET.

Mine is the same way....had a new alky carb built and had been running at 38* on gas and made some passes on alky at the same timing and it ran identical times....lowered it to 32* this weekend to see how it would respond and it slowed down everywhere so it's back to 38*.

quote:

Originally posted by Luvtruck:

quote:

Originally posted by banjo:
My engine wanted the same timing on methanol as gas.

I also agree most run more timing than needed. Several years back, when I had the engine on the dyno, when I told my engine guy that the timing should be around 34, he laughed and said it should be in the 38 range. When we tried it, it lost power all the way through. This was also backed up on the track.

I made a timing curve based on the dyno numbers and where the engine made peak power at each timing point. In the car, there was no discernable gains in ET.

Mine is the same way....had a new alky carb built and had been running at 38* on gas and made some passes on alky at the same timing and it ran identical times....lowered it to 32* this weekend to see how it would respond and it slowed down everywhere so it's back to 38*.

Are you going to try more?

quote:

Originally posted by CURTIS REED:

quote:

Originally posted by Luvtruck:

quote:

Originally posted by banjo:
My engine wanted the same timing on methanol as gas.

I also agree most run more timing than needed. Several years back, when I had the engine on the dyno, when I told my engine guy that the timing should be around 34, he laughed and said it should be in the 38 range. When we tried it, it lost power all the way through. This was also backed up on the track.

I made a timing curve based on the dyno numbers and where the engine made peak power at each timing point. In the car, there was no discernable gains in ET.

Mine is the same way....had a new alky carb built and had been running at 38* on gas and made some passes on alky at the same timing and it ran identical times....lowered it to 32* this weekend to see how it would respond and it slowed down everywhere so it's back to 38*.

Are you going to try more?

Been thinking about it now that I know how it reacted when I dropped it to 32*
Sounded lazy starting and my 60' slowed from a 1.19 to a 1.21 and I lost .07 in the 1/8th

I agree with this. I ran 36* and when I got my grid. I started pulling some timing for short periods of time and made no differance. I sarted at 4 degees then 6 for 2 seconds with no change in anything. Then I pulled 6 for the entire run and still no noticeable diff in performance. I finally tried 8 then 10 degrees and it finally started calming the car down. I do still run 34* as full timing and pull 10* ramped back in over 1.5 seconds to help with tire shake to help with consistency. It kills about .02 in 60' and carries that pretty much clear through. Probably don't need that much total timing but I guess if it's not broke I'm not going to fix it
I do think it is different with different setups though.

quote:

Originally posted by Curly1:
My heads are AFR 235 and I am on Methanol. A more efficient chamber may need less timing than even the 28*-30* that I run. My new motor has really good 18* heads and it may need less timing.



To kill some ET I drop the timing to 24* or 26*.

Now on my car and your mileage may vary there is little ET difference from 28* to 38* timing. But there is a few more ponies at 28 and I feel it is easier on motor than 38* so that is where I run mine. So if I was running 38* and pulled 8* out for 1.2 seconds or something like that it would not make any difference at all. None. Now if my baseline is 28* and I pull 8* out for that same time it would make a significant difference.
That is where I think the Grid is a good deal if you are allowed to run them. You could also pull a few degrees out on the shift if needed.

Well, we ARE Drag racers. So we tend to think if a little is good let's put more to it and it will be better. Whether it is Nitrous, Nitro, Blower or Turbo boost lets throw more at it. Then when things do go bad we tend to look at the Turbo, blower, Nitrous or what ever and the Timing could have saved it.

Timing is one of those things that more is not necessarily better. On my set up there is about 8* of timing from 30*-38* (Sweet spot) where it makes little or no difference but once I go outside that it does. Each set up may be different so you need to find where that sweet spot is on your car.

But if you are in that range and you pull out 2* timing for 1.5 seconds or even the whole run it will /may not make any difference.

So I can not say where you need to set the timing or how much you need to pull out to make a difference but I can say MOST people run more timing than they really need or should.

Then the other question is if my car runs same from 30*-38* why do I run 30* instead of 38*? Or not in the middle like 34*?

Because I THINK it is easier on rotating assembly if you are not firing it off any earlier or further down the cylinder than you have to. I THINK your Crank, Rods, Pistons, rings, bearings etc may last longer while still making same power. So I run 28*-30*.

Your mileage may vary, your combination may be different but you should think about what I said and try less timing. Hope it helps.

quote:

Originally posted by 329L:
That could be true on the hill that you race on, but down in here in corn country, most of the time we use less timing than gas.

It was also true at sea level with my combo and many others that I know. It is combo specific though, and only by running it can that be determined.

quote:

Originally posted by Tom Reyer:
I have a small block, small tire car on alcohol that runs 6.40's-50s. I run my car at 38 degrees and pull 2 degrees at the hit and ramp it back in the first second of the run. Then I pull 2 degrees in high gear and cross the 1/8th at 36*.

As I pull 2* in high gear, my O2's raise .2-.3 on the graph.

If I raced on a marginal track, I would adjust the shocks and could pull more timing at the hit with a coulpe key strokes if needed.

So this would mean pulling timing is leaning it out correct?

quote:

Originally posted by Holytown:

quote:

Originally posted by Tom Reyer:
I have a small block, small tire car on alcohol that runs 6.40's-50s. I run my car at 38 degrees and pull 2 degrees at the hit and ramp it back in the first second of the run. Then I pull 2 degrees in high gear and cross the 1/8th at 36*.

As I pull 2* in high gear, my O2's raise .2-.3 on the graph.

If I raced on a marginal track, I would adjust the shocks and could pull more timing at the hit with a coulpe key strokes if needed.

So this would mean pulling timing is leaning it out correct?

No its firing the fuel mixture later in the cycle, which is putting more heat out the pipe.

quote:

Originally posted by Holytown:

quote:

Originally posted by Tom Reyer:
I have a small block, small tire car on alcohol that runs 6.40's-50s. I run my car at 38 degrees and pull 2 degrees at the hit and ramp it back in the first second of the run. Then I pull 2 degrees in high gear and cross the 1/8th at 36*.

As I pull 2* in high gear, my O2's raise .2-.3 on the graph.

If I raced on a marginal track, I would adjust the shocks and could pull more timing at the hit with a coulpe key strokes if needed.

So this would mean pulling timing is leaning it out correct?

No. Pulling timing out does not lean it out. Timing and fuel are completely different systems. Now they must work together and effect each other but they are separate systems.

Too lean and too much timing you will have problems and hard on motor. On your fuel I guess it is better to be on the fat side than the lean side but I try to get it right. On the timing I think it is better to have too little than too much timing.

If you run too much Timing you can burn more fuel but will not make more power.
Many people are running too much timing and too much fuel so plugs look good but it is not optimum and is harder on rotating assembly.

From many years ago they have always said start timing at say 32* and keep adding timing until it slows down and back down 2* or so. We all think more is better and it is not.

Maybe you should start at 38* or so and go DOWN until it slows down and go back up a few degrees.

Something else I have done a lot of work on the dyno and it has been a huge help but the dyno and the track are not exactly the same. My car is Enderle Hat Injection and it reacts different with 150 MPH forced air in it than it does on the dyno.