I installed a new solenoid and rewired it, landing both battery cables on the same side and ran a 10ga. wire from the other side, directly to the starter solenoid. Gained .5 volts at the starter solenoid but still have less than 9 volts.
That said, it's cranking better than ever but with the help of a 5 degree start retard too.
Two Go Lithium batteries will not fit under the nose.
Will 1 fit?
J.R. Baxter
""Fathom the hypocrisy of a Government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured ..but not everyone must prove they are a citizen."
2024 Miller Rolla Competition Engines ProCharger Hoosier Tires Abruzzi
September 28, 2020, 03:27 PM
1320racer
Yes but I'm told by all including Go Lithium that I need two.
September 28, 2020, 05:59 PM
TOP38
Ed
Are you running the Ford type solenoids because your car has the battery cable to the starter run through the frame?
I never liked the idea of running the battery cable through the frame (positive one). I don't run one on my car, just the stock type one on the starter. Every connection and switch including a solenoid adds resistance. The other thing most don't get is the understanding of the circuit, meaning the complete path from and back to the battery counts equally.
Where 16v systems have an added advantage is they see less voltage loss due to higher volts. Power is volts x amps, so to get the same power (what's required to turn the starter motor) for a given length of wire, the more amps it carries the more voltage loss that occurs. The lower the supply voltage is the higher the amps need to be to get the require power. So a 16v deal needs about 70% of the amps a 12v deal needs which adds up to less voltage drop.
16 feet or just copper wire carrying 550 amps 1/0 wire - 1.73 volts lost (1.26 at 400 amps and 16 volts) 1 wire = 2.18 volts lost (1.6) 2 wire = 2.75 volts lost (2.0)
This is just the cable alone, add for losses for switches, connections etc.
September 28, 2020, 07:06 PM
1320racer
quote:
Originally posted by TOP38: Ed
Are you running the Ford type solenoids because your car has the battery cable to the starter run through the frame?
Yes, that's how it was wired from Undercover and that's how Bill Frederick aka Elite Chassis continues to wire all his cars. Now with both cables on the same side of the solenoid, it's always hot when the power is on.
September 28, 2020, 08:31 PM
Bucky
quote:
Originally posted by TOP38: Ed
Are you running the Ford type solenoids because your car has the battery cable to the starter run through the frame?
I never liked the idea of running the battery cable through the frame (positive one). I don't run one on my car, just the stock type one on the starter. Every connection and switch including a solenoid adds resistance. The other thing most don't get is the understanding of the circuit, meaning the complete path from and back to the battery counts equally.
Where 16v systems have an added advantage is they see less voltage loss due to higher volts. Power is volts x amps, so to get the same power (what's required to turn the starter motor) for a given length of wire, the more amps it carries the more voltage loss that occurs. The lower the supply voltage is the higher the amps need to be to get the require power. So a 16v deal needs about 70% of the amps a 12v deal needs which adds up to less voltage drop.
16 feet or just copper wire carrying 550 amps 1/0 wire - 1.73 volts lost (1.26 at 400 amps and 16 volts) 1 wire = 2.18 volts lost (1.6) 2 wire = 2.75 volts lost (2.0)
This is just the cable alone, add for losses for switches, connections etc.
Why would higher voltage result in lower amperage? If the starter turns faster, it's doing more work correct?
If we were measuring flow through a pipe, higher pressure would not result in less flow. The same sized pipe (resistance) would flow more (current) with higher pressure (voltage).
Foxtrot Juliet Bravo
September 29, 2020, 09:25 AM
TOP38
quote:
Originally posted by Bucky:
quote:
Originally posted by TOP38: Ed
Are you running the Ford type solenoids because your car has the battery cable to the starter run through the frame?
I never liked the idea of running the battery cable through the frame (positive one). I don't run one on my car, just the stock type one on the starter. Every connection and switch including a solenoid adds resistance. The other thing most don't get is the understanding of the circuit, meaning the complete path from and back to the battery counts equally.
Where 16v systems have an added advantage is they see less voltage loss due to higher volts. Power is volts x amps, so to get the same power (what's required to turn the starter motor) for a given length of wire, the more amps it carries the more voltage loss that occurs. The lower the supply voltage is the higher the amps need to be to get the require power. So a 16v deal needs about 70% of the amps a 12v deal needs which adds up to less voltage drop.
16 feet or just copper wire carrying 550 amps 1/0 wire - 1.73 volts lost (1.26 at 400 amps and 16 volts) 1 wire = 2.18 volts lost (1.6) 2 wire = 2.75 volts lost (2.0)
This is just the cable alone, add for losses for switches, connections etc.
Why would higher voltage result in lower amperage? If the starter turns faster, it's doing more work correct?
If we were measuring flow through a pipe, higher pressure would not result in less flow. The same sized pipe (resistance) would flow more (current) with higher pressure (voltage).
All electric motors that are free spinning, no load, draw the least amount of power/amps are spinning at max rpm. Apply load/resistance and rpm drops and amp draw increases along with heat build up. Just like an engine on a dyno! Work which in this case is power produced to turn the motor over cannot be produced until load is applied, no load no work. Work requires load to be performed in a given amount of time, just like HP which really means ft-lbs/second.
So for electric motors, Work/power = volts x AMPS, If you hold power to a constant and increase volts, AMPS goes down. For our starters, the work required to turn a motor over at a fixed rpm is constant. And yes, when you swap a 12v battery with a 16v battery the motor spins over faster because more work is occurring.
September 29, 2020, 09:43 AM
Bucky
That's what I'm getting at. More work is being done. So did the amps/current actually get reduced?
Foxtrot Juliet Bravo
September 29, 2020, 09:53 AM
TOP38
quote:
Originally posted by Bucky: That's what I'm getting at. More work is being done. So did the amps/current actually get reduced?
If the starter spins faster/more rpms, then yes, less amps/current flow is occurring.
September 29, 2020, 10:11 AM
Mad Dog
quote:
Originally posted by Bucky:
Why would higher voltage result in lower amperage?
Simple answer: Ohm's Law
Dan
DOES YOUR IDEOLOGY ALLOW YOU TO EQUITABLY APPLY STANDARDS OF ACCOUNTABILITY OR DOES IT PROMOTE THE PRACTICE OF HYPOCRISY?
September 29, 2020, 10:21 AM
Bucky
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Dog:
quote:
Originally posted by Bucky:
Why would higher voltage result in lower amperage?
Simple answer: Ohm's Law
Again, that only applies if the work is held constant. If the starter spins the engine over faster, that isn't the case is it?This message has been edited. Last edited by: Bucky,
Foxtrot Juliet Bravo
September 29, 2020, 07:39 PM
Mad Dog
Higher voltage applied results in Lower Ohmic Resistance. Lower ohmic resistance results in lower amperage draw. This applies to electrical part of the starting circuit.
Gear reduction drive components lower the mechanical resistance of the rotating engine. This applies to the mechanical part of the starting system.
Both higher voltage applied AND lower rotational resistance can be helpful in reducing "work" needed to start an engine...
Dan
DOES YOUR IDEOLOGY ALLOW YOU TO EQUITABLY APPLY STANDARDS OF ACCOUNTABILITY OR DOES IT PROMOTE THE PRACTICE OF HYPOCRISY?
September 29, 2020, 09:29 PM
Bucky
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Dog: Higher voltage applied results in Lower Ohmic Resistance. Lower ohmic resistance results in lower amperage draw. This applies to electrical part of the starting circuit.
Gear reduction drive components lower the mechanical resistance of the rotating engine. This applies to the mechanical part of the starting system.
Both higher voltage applied AND lower rotational resistance can be helpful in reducing "work" needed to start an engine...
Why are we now bringing all sorts of other variables into it? I simply pointed out that you aren't looking at apples to apples when the starter is turning faster with the higher voltage. If you increase the voltage in an electric car and it travels faster, you don't hold the work done on both sides of the equation as equal do you?
Foxtrot Juliet Bravo
September 29, 2020, 09:32 PM
Cashflow
Ed,
I’m assuming that the oil pan you’re running will not allow you to run a 153 tooth flexplate?
Clowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right. Here I am.......
September 29, 2020, 09:53 PM
Mad Dog
quote:
Originally posted by Bucky:
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Dog: Higher voltage applied results in Lower Ohmic Resistance. Lower ohmic resistance results in lower amperage draw. This applies to electrical part of the starting circuit.
Gear reduction drive components lower the mechanical resistance of the rotating engine. This applies to the mechanical part of the starting system.
Both higher voltage applied AND lower rotational resistance can be helpful in reducing "work" needed to start an engine...
Why are we now bringing all sorts of other variables into it? I simply pointed out that you aren't looking at apples to apples when the starter is turning faster with the higher voltage. If you increase the voltage in an electric car and it travels faster, you don't hold the work done on both sides of the equation as equal do you?
All I can say is, "I'm sorry you don't understand Ohm's law and how it applies to the basic operation of any and all electrical systems"...
Dan
DOES YOUR IDEOLOGY ALLOW YOU TO EQUITABLY APPLY STANDARDS OF ACCOUNTABILITY OR DOES IT PROMOTE THE PRACTICE OF HYPOCRISY?
September 29, 2020, 09:53 PM
Bucky
Is the preference of the 153 over the 168? And because That ratio would turn the engine faster?
Foxtrot Juliet Bravo
September 30, 2020, 05:38 AM
green1
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Dog: Higher voltage applied results in Lower Ohmic Resistance. Lower ohmic resistance results in lower amperage draw. This applies to electrical part of the starting circuit.
Gear reduction drive components lower the mechanical resistance of the rotating engine. This applies to the mechanical part of the starting system.
Both higher voltage applied AND lower rotational resistance can be helpful in reducing "work" needed to start an engine...
Sorry Dan but the distance of the starter motor stays the same, it is fixed and technically the higher applied voltage will increase amperage draw. A starter will draw high amps with a battery that is dead because the motor is being stalled. If you increase the applied voltage to a dc motor the amp draw will increase at the same rate, example go from 12 volt to 16 volt is a 25% increase in voltage so amps will increase by 25%.
September 30, 2020, 06:52 AM
Cashflow
Bucky,
Yes, that is exactly why. My cars have always started great all these years and my contention is that’s the reason. If I build a new bigger, higher horsepower engine down the road it will probably need the larger flexplate because of the oil pan design.
Clowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right. Here I am.......
September 30, 2020, 08:26 AM
Bucky
I know all my mini starters have two mounting locations. Is there a diameter difference between some of the flywheels?
Foxtrot Juliet Bravo
September 30, 2020, 08:33 AM
Cashflow
Yes, the 153 tooth SBC flywheel is smaller. It's pretty much all I've ever run on my Big Blocks. Works like a champ. Some bigger kicked out oil pans will not allow it though.
Clowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right. Here I am.......
