Racers, specifically those of you running E85. I want to learn more and am considering running it in a SBC, 383, high compression, trailered, dedicated drag race car.

Or, in your experience, is Methanol a better choice.

In reference to consistent ETs which fuel, E85 or Methanol holds the biggest advantage? Which fuel hold the best potential for winning because of consistent performance.

Larry I’ve used e85 for over ten years. In my experience it’s a good fuel at the compression that you are at. My car is a 406sbc at a true 13.5/1. The car was quicker and faster on e85 than c12. The added benefits of cooler operating temperature and lower cost was nice. I found consistency to be good. Like everything there was a learning curve. I’m planning to use e85 again in my current project. I’m very happy with it. I must say that a lot of the problems that people tell you it brings are easily avoided and mostly not true issues. You do have to treat it differently than gas Or methanol as far as tuning goes. Get a good carb from a builder familiar with e85 and follow his directions to the letter. Each builder goes about it a little differently. Some work and a lot don’t.

Larry I like it went from 112 here with a 13.9 406 to E85 . I didnt pick up any ET with it but I run poured blocks and the E85 keeps the coolant temp no hotter than 205 and it cools quick. Also the cost of 112 vs E85 is a good savings. I will say as other post mention as long as you have a quality carb you should be fine. My experience has been its a great fuel alternative. I always test my fuel before buying to see if is 85 or better. only downside I have seen is if it sits for a month or so its like methanol and is corrosive I had issues with mixture screws chalking up. so I just run some gas in it if its going to sit a while. I add scented top lube to get away from the smell. I think you will like it !

Larry I forgot to add that I race with friends on gas and methanol and our cars are all consistent and go rounds if the driver shows up.

I think anything E-85 will do alcohol will do 15% better. Run cooler? Alcohol. Better performance? Alcohol. Cost? Probably alcohol? And it does not stink like nasty E-85.

quote:

I think anything E-85 will do alcohol will do 15% better. Run cooler? Alcohol. Better performance? Alcohol. Cost? Probably alcohol? And it does not stink like nasty E-85.

That's kinda what I was thinking.
The question should be ....... Does E85 do anything better than alcohol ??

E85 is not for everyone, just as alcohol or gas is not. At the risk of starting an argument, in my case anyway, the conversion to e85 was significantly less than from race gas to alcohol. All it cost me was to have one of my existing carburetors converted. The existing simple Holley hp150 fuel pump and dead head regulator running through #8 lines produced the exact same performance as the magnafuel 500 pump and matching regulator gave when I needlessly changed them out a few years after the initial conversion. Like I said it’s not for everyone but for me it offers some convenience that alcohol or race gas cannot. I’m bracket and index racing anyway. As long as the car is predictable I can adjust throttle stop settings or the dial in.

I believe purchasing E85 from a distributor vs a local gas pump would be the wiser choice if using that fuel. The fuel % will be as specified on the fuel barrel from distributor. The pump can be off wildly from advertised. Seen this numerous times from a friend that No Longer purchases E85 it at the pump. His car runs well, very predictable and uses a 150 shot of nitrous to get him to the 8.60 class with a Pontiac engine.

I never even considered E85 when I switched from gas to alky....I also think methanol is the better fuel across the board between the two...

This can go way down a rabbit hole, so let's just talk about bracket racing.

Pound for pound, Gasoline contains the most BTU potential.
Methanol can be used for a few more HP in ultra high compression applications. (15:1 +)
I think both Methanol and E-Fuels give a boost to low end torque, by "liquid compression boost".

Some performance may be gained simply by the lower intake air temperatures.

Obviously, Methanol and E-fuels will cover for some atmospheric variation because the content of atmosphere in the mixture is approximately 1/2 of what it is on gasoline.

The economic factors are misleading...yes Alky and E are much cheaper at the pump, but when you factor the consumption, and consider the amount of fuel expended simply to get heat into the engine (pre heaters on the oil and coolant would be well worth the efforts), the increased wear/tear and maintenance requirements, I feel like gasoline is still a winner.

ANY of the fuels can be as consistent as the next. Yes, there will be ET movement, but it's all predictable.

Simple block mounted mechanical pump straight to the carburetor and I'm good.
Current cost of 110 leaded fuel for me is right at $8.00 a gallon. I have to win the event to use near 5 gallons on a race day.

I have a friend that insists he couldn't afford to race if he had to run gasoline, but used up several fire extinguishers in a season when his junk caught fire trying to cold start it.....

Just looking at the condition of the cylinders on a used alky burner is enough for me to just say no to alky.

quote:

.The economic factors are misleading...yes Alky and E85 are much cheaper at the pump, but when you factor the consumption, and consider the amount of fuel expended simply to get heat into the engine (pre heaters on the oil and coolant would be well worth the efforts), the increased wear/tear and maintenance requirements, I feel like gasoline is still a winner.

I think any fuel works well if set up properly. The error I’ve seen if a racer moves from gas to methanol is the prior gas cooling system is much too large for methanol. If going from gas to E85, I believe the same size cooling system might be more compatible.

Some on methanol are using lean out valves to shorten the warm up period. Others are using thermostats. I believe the methanol / E85 cooling system if sized correctly, will only be slightly more fuel consumption as gas during warm up.

If using methanol (maybe E85 also?) I think installing a small basic gas primer system the safest choice over cold weather priming by hand.

My oil samples show no water and only a trace of fuel using methanol.

I have 10 + years of good success with Methanol, so I am hesitant to change from a good thing.

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Woodfin:
I have 10 + years of good success with Methanol, so I am hesitant to change from a good thing.

I hear ya. I haven't burned anything but methanol for 35+ years.
However, I do keep an open mind. I'm set up for alky, and know how to use it and avoid the potential problems. I'm on efi, and a flip a switch to lean it out to warm up. And I don't have to run overly rich at idle anyhow. e seems like a cost advantage and with a little less corrosiveness. But for consistency, you end up buying from a barrel since the pump is not a consistent mixture.
Big advantage on efi is the injector size. With e you can get away with a MUCH smaller injector which can save a bunch.
Now with boost, the problem with e is that it doesn't cool down the hot air if you don't use an intercooler. Well, not as much. If you aren't pushing a turbo hard, e can be just fine non intercooled. I really considered it for my son's car. But then we would be stuck bringing two fuels to the track.

^^^^^^ Bucky KNOWS!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Goob:
This can go way down a rabbit hole, so let's just talk about bracket racing.

Pound for pound, Gasoline contains the most BTU potential.
Methanol can be used for a few more HP in ultra high compression applications. (15:1 +)
I think both Methanol and E-Fuels give a boost to low end torque, by "liquid compression boost".

Some performance may be gained simply by the lower intake air temperatures.

Obviously, Methanol and E-fuels will cover for some atmospheric variation because the content of atmosphere in the mixture is approximately 1/2 of what it is on gasoline.

The economic factors are misleading...yes Alky and E are much cheaper at the pump, but when you factor the consumption, and consider the amount of fuel expended simply to get heat into the engine (pre heaters on the oil and coolant would be well worth the efforts), the increased wear/tear and maintenance requirements, I feel like gasoline is still a winner.

ANY of the fuels can be as consistent as the next. Yes, there will be ET movement, but it's all predictable.

Simple block mounted mechanical pump straight to the carburetor and I'm good.
Current cost of 110 leaded fuel for me is right at $8.00 a gallon. I have to win the event to use near 5 gallons on a race day.

I have a friend that insists he couldn't afford to race if he had to run gasoline, but used up several fire extinguishers in a season when his junk caught fire trying to cold start it.....

Dave made some excellent points for gas.

Now I will tell you why I went to alcohol, in 1990's I was bracket racing and usually pitted with same people. Texas Motorplex had fresh blacktop and it was stupid hot there. My gauges usually read 110*-115* and everyone would race and then when get back to their pit fire up generator, hook up battery charger and scramble to get car cooled down. They were working really hard and it was too hot to be doing that mess. They were running dual batteries, alternator and still having to charge between rounds to keep it cool in that heat.

At that time we were told if you run alcohol you have to change oil every week. No, you do not just get motor hot enough at end of day to evaporate moisture. Vacuum pump helps in fact I recommend vacuum pump on all race cars.

When I went to alcohol my performance picked up a lot and after the round I pull into my pit, log my weather and time slip and top off fuel tank. So much easier and I think it helps my program to get weather data closer to actual run. I believe alcohol is more consistent. As for BTU content yes gas does have higher BTU per pound but you use more pounds of alcohol so total energy should be more with alcohol.
With alcohol I never have a problem keeping my engine temperatures where I want it which helps dial my car.
With alcohol I am able to run a very small radiator and cooling system which saves a little weight and helps performance some. Corrosion has never been an issue but I do always run toplube and clean system out at end of season.

With E-85 I do not see it as good as gas or alcohol it has the worst of both and in my opinion good race gas or even better yet alcohol will be better and cheaper.

With all that said my last few motors are higher horsepower per cubic inch and it looks like I will have to run gas. Several people who should know what they are talking about say my combination simply will not work on alcohol. I will be having 2 or 3 days on the dyno to try every option and see.

Dave,

I use maybe 10 gallons of methanol to win a race. Last drum I paid $3.30 a gallon. $10 a day more shouldn't cause anyone to say they can't afford gas. Granted I do have oil and water heaters in my car and I also run a thermostat.

As far as extra work, you are correct. I spin my engine over as I put it away and spray the cylinders down with Foggit. Wears me out. LOL

Now cylinder wall finish I won't argue with you on that. They never look as good as a gas engine. Cold leak I have had them be 30% and never lose any on the track.

As far as running E. That stuff stinks and it will never happen for me unless it was bought from a fuel supplier instead of the pump. I'm not worried about saving $5 a race though. I would like to run gas when it's really cold but just haven't gotten a good gas carb yet.

On the btu thing, you CANNOT compare gas to methanol pound for pound because yes, gas has more per pound. But at stoich, there is actually more btu available with methanol than gas....too many people say gas has more btu and leave it at that....that's not even scratching the surface.

I've noticed no difference in engine wear since my switch to methanol than I did on gas....

It takes almost twice as many pounds of alcohol per pound of air as it does gas. So overall you get more BTUs with alcohol.

I went to alcohol in 1998 and it has worked well for me.

Plenty switching to E85 around me, I've looked at buying a carburetor. For weekly bracket racing it seems good and it's cheaper and easy to access. Not many places selling race gas so many of us use AV gas. Race gas is $10-11 for 110, methanol is over $200 a barrel. E85 is $2 and change a gallon and easy to get 24/7.