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External air or underhood air?
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DRR Sportsman
posted
I've always used an air pan sealed to hood scoop for cooler air and supposedly more power but I've read that no air pan or scoop gives more predictable and repeatable ET's due to more consistent underhood air (launching at same engine temp) even if slightly less power results.
What do you think?
 
Posts: 606 | Location: Lakewood, Co. | Registered: January 22, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
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This is an experiment and I will post results in a few weeks.


Larry Woodfin





 
Posts: 1899 | Location: Kilgore TX | Registered: March 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Trophy
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On my Malibu a sealed air pan to cowl scoop made et much more consistent.Kinda hard to keep under hood temps constant. But outside air is a known temp.
 
Posts: 40 | Location: ohio | Registered: August 15, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of botmbulb
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Underhood air temp is much more consistent. I have many customers proving this. If you're less consistent using underhood temp, you're not running it hot enough or you're too rich.
 
Posts: 490 | Location: Hammonton, N.J. | Registered: March 06, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
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quote:
posted January 26, 2019 02:10 AM Hide Post
This is an experiment

It was good enough for Ford engineers...... Thunderbolt!


Illegitimi non carborundum
 
Posts: 2385 | Location: OKC, OK | Registered: February 15, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of Steve from Pa
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quote:
Underhood air temp is much more consistent. I have many customers proving this. If you're less consistent using underhood temp, you're not running it hot enough or you're too rich.


On our slow very mild SBC on Alcohol and we ran a sealed cowl hood for a long time because that's what you were suppose to do. Then tried just leaving the cowl open and not really selling the pan to it (which was better).

Then following Buds recommendation we blocked the cowl on ours all together - we still have it blocked!

One of the small things that help us get a little better after Buds school.


Most important, keep the shiny side up
 
Posts: 798 | Location: Punxsutawney, Pa USA | Registered: February 05, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
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quote:
things that help us get a little better after Buds school.


Who is Bud?


Larry Woodfin



 
Posts: 1899 | Location: Kilgore TX | Registered: March 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post



DRR Sportsman
Picture of botmbulb
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quote:
Originally posted by Larry Woodfin:
quote:
things that help us get a little better after Buds school.


Who is Bud?

I am.
 
Posts: 490 | Location: Hammonton, N.J. | Registered: March 06, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
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BUDS is Basic Underwater Demolition School. It is for training/selection of US Navy Seals. Take care. Tom Worthington


If it seems that bracket racing has gotten too expensive for you, maybe you are just doing it wrong.
 
Posts: 1285 | Location: Rocky Mount, NC | Registered: December 01, 1999Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
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Oops. Nevermind. Take care. Tom Worthington


If it seems that bracket racing has gotten too expensive for you, maybe you are just doing it wrong.
 
Posts: 1285 | Location: Rocky Mount, NC | Registered: December 01, 1999Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
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quote:
Originally posted by botmbulb:
Underhood air temp is much more consistent. I have many customers proving this. If you're less consistent using underhood temp, you're not running it hot enough or you're too rich.


What engine water temp under hood are you recommending if using alcohol?
 
Posts: 2722 | Location: 53056 | Registered: December 30, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
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quote:
Originally posted by barnym17:
On my Malibu a sealed air pan to cowl scoop made et much more consistent.Kinda hard to keep under hood temps constant. But outside air is a known temp.

I can regulate my under hood temp pretty close, can't regulate outside air worth a damn. If I could it would be 72' here now instead of 15'. Smile
 
Posts: 606 | Location: Lakewood, Co. | Registered: January 22, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of botmbulb
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quote:
Originally posted by markemark:
quote:
Originally posted by botmbulb:
Underhood air temp is much more consistent. I have many customers proving this. If you're less consistent using underhood temp, you're not running it hot enough or you're too rich.


What engine water temp under hood are you recommending if using alcohol?

About 175°-180°.
 
Posts: 490 | Location: Hammonton, N.J. | Registered: March 06, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of Ron Gusack
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Does this mean racers using under hood air have a mounted gauge to monitor air temps under the hood?

I don't have inner fender wells so my under hood temps probably vary a ton going down the track.
 
Posts: 466 | Location: Maryland | Registered: January 23, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post



DRR Sportsman
Picture of botmbulb
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quote:
Originally posted by Ron Gusack:
Does this mean racers using under hood air have a mounted gauge to monitor air temps under the hood?

I don't have inner fender wells so my under hood temps probably vary a ton going down the track.

Some have a gauge. Temps don't vary much at all throughout the season, maybe 10-15 degrees, and nothing notable throughout the day, maybe 1-2 degrees for a day to night race. I don't have inner fenders on my car, as well as others I have worked with, and the temps don't vary.
 
Posts: 490 | Location: Hammonton, N.J. | Registered: March 06, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of FootbrakeJim
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I haven't pounded you guys with one of my long-winded posts in a while, so yank those straps tight... Roll Eyes
A key difference in this discussion is Predictability vs. Consistency.
Depending on your total program, either way can be made to work very well. (Talking strictly door cars here, and especially street-strip cars, or those with engine-driven water pumps and/or fans).
With over 10 years of racing experience using under-hood air, and more than 10 using fresh air induction, and having my share of success both ways, here are MY observations - (your results may vary!). Big Grin
1. Fresh (outside) air will virtually ALWAYS make more power, maybe very little difference, maybe a lot, depending on difference in temperature of ambient (outside) air vs under-hood air temp. Simple physics - air density. But in bracket racing, that won't win you many rounds.
2. Fresh air is less Consistent across varying atmospheric conditions, but it is more Predictable, (IF you have a lot of good data on how your combination responds in all types of weather conditions). This can be via weather station, log book entries, or a combination of both.
3. Under-hood air is basically the opposite - it is GENERALLY more Consistent, but less Predictable over a wide range of air conditions. (This includes changes in Humidity, Barometric Pressure, and Temperature).
Couple things to consider:
1. None of this matters a whole lot in very stable weather conditions, where the Density Altitude hardly changes during the race day/night. Those days are usually rare, and that is when your driving ability (and luck) are the major influences.
2. Keep in mind the Fresh air vs Under-hood air question only deals with one of the 3 primary variables in air quality, (Temperature). A big swing in Humidity or Barometer will absolutely affect your car's performance, even if temp remains constant.
3. There are several things you can do to help your ability to dial the car, regardless of which air intake route you choose: Under-hood air? You need to do what you can to regulate the air temp in that engine bay. Think about this: Say you have a stock (un-modified) 180* thermostat. Ambient temp is 65*. Round 1, you heed the call quickly, so you are at the head of the lanes. You do your best to warm the car, your coolant temp is 160* at the tree. Your thermostat stays closed the entire pass, so that wall of air passing through your grill, radiator, and to your carb is roughly 65*, (some heating of intake air from your headers will likely occur, how much depends a lot on your car's configuration, grill opening, wheel wells, etc).
Round 2, ambient air temp almost the same, barometer and humidity. But maybe your pit neighbor has his generator and car running, so you missed the first call to the lanes, so now you are at the back of the lanes this time. Which means you have to start the car 10-15 times as you move forward, so you are building a bit more heat in the engine. You hit the water box at 170* this time. After your burnout, you stage, your coolant is now at 175* and before half track, your thermostat opens, now all that air passing through your radiator is heated to well over 100* before it enters your carb. Not gonna run the same number this pass. This is just one example of a ton of scenarios you might face. I am not a fan of removing the thermostat, unless you have an electric pump and fan you can control. But lets say you drill 4 small holes, (.080-.120"), evenly spaced around the flange of your thermostat. It will still work to build heat when you need to, by restricting most of the coolant flow. But it will never stop the flow completely. The result is that the temperature of the air flowing through your radiator to your carb will vary much less, (more consistent air temps = more consistent ET's, under a given set of air conditions). When I used under-hood air, (which I recommend if you don't have a lot of run data on your exact combination, or borrow/rent a car, etc), I always tried to get the coolant temp as hot as it might possibly get all day, and duplicate that for every round. Because you can generally always build heat, but you can't always get things as cool in late rounds, as you were Rd 1 or 2.
After I went to a fresh air intake, sealed with an air pan, it took many runs, (a LOT), under very wide ranging weather conditions, at multiple tracks, with NO modifications to the car, to build enough data to where I could predict the car's ET within a couple hundredths. Obviously that curve lessens over time, to where I pretty-well know (after years) what it will run off the trailer to .01 or better, even if I change carbs or fuel.
(Note: It also took a lot of runs to learn what the car would do breathing under-hood air, as well). Smile
Bottom line, for me, is if I were going to an unfamiliar track (with limited time runs, like 1 or 2 max available before eliminations), or racing a car I didn't have a lot of passes with, or new to racing, or running a street-strip car, I would recommend using under-hood air. Maybe not quite as quick, but easier to get a handle on dialing, under most weather conditions. If I am taking my long-time piece to the local track, for a typical Summer race day, give me my fresh air hood, my trusty old weather station, and a full cooler. Cool


Dan "Jim" Moore
Much too young to feel this damn old!!
 
Posts: 1113 | Location: Farmersville, TX  | Registered: December 05, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
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Hmm maybe i should put a duct from my engine scoop and have it pull air through radiator. that should get some consistent air temps into carb?


Stephen Liss jr

 
Posts: 330 | Location: Wisconsin | Registered: April 28, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of TomR
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quote:
Originally posted by botmbulb:
quote:
Originally posted by markemark:
quote:
Originally posted by botmbulb:
Underhood air temp is much more consistent. I have many customers proving this. If you're less consistent using underhood temp, you're not running it hot enough or you're too rich.




What engine water temp under hood are you recommending if using alcohol?

About 175°-180°.


Anyone who has seen me race knows I start it early and crank the lean out every run to get it hot. Sometimes you just can't get it to 180. Having the fan on makes a difference in my car so I made a pro-stock truck style scoop and sealed the hood.


72 Nova "Hooptie"
 
Posts: 793 | Location: Hanover, MD | Registered: June 20, 2016Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of botmbulb
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Footbrake Jim, underhood temp is more accurate for prediction, mainly because you're taking the biggest variable out of the equation. One important thing to note is the accuracy of the prediction is better if the movement is smaller for a given weather change. If the weather change for outside air says it's worth .080 change in ET, and for underhood air says it's .020 change in ET, an 80% accuracy prediction would have the outside air within .016 and the underhood within .004. Also, DA is one of the worst weather readings to use for prediction.
I would never recommend using a thermostat for bracket racing, and would only suggest using a crank driven water pump for a street driven vehicle.
 
Posts: 490 | Location: Hammonton, N.J. | Registered: March 06, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
Picture of banjo
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Just curious, what is the reasoning behind not using a thermostat?


Bill Simpkins
74 Nova
SBC 406
3240 pounds
Speierracing heads

60 1.27 (10/16)
1/8 6.03@111 (10/16)
Best 9.87@131 on the rev limitor 1 Feb 2013


nova

quarterpanelview

wheelie

FTI Converter
www.speierracingheads.com

 
Posts: 1837 | Location: San Angelo | Registered: March 07, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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