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DRR Pro
Picture of 00 DEAD ON
posted
I have a 598 BBC 12* profiler heads on alky injection. With the timing at 30* the timing make on the plug is at the end of the strap. With 32* of timing the timing mark on the strap is 1/2 way from the end of the strap to the middle of the curve. Looks like it will like more timing or???
Any ideas on timing. TDC was verified and is correct. Any ideas would be appreciated. Should I keep going up? Until the timing mark is on the curve of the strap
I put new plug in in the staging lanes, shut it off at finish line. Get off track and pull out
Thanks


Brian Mollison
2013 American Dragster
2020 Sumerduck Dragway VA Top ET Champion
2017 Sumerduck Top ET & SSS Track Champion
2017 MAC Top ET Track Champion
2009 Sumerduck Dragway Va Top ET & IHRA SSS Track Champion
2008 IHRA Division 1 Top ET Bracket Final Runner-up
2007 Colonial Beach Dragway Top ET Track Champion
 
Posts: 1029 | Location: Stafford, Virginia | Registered: October 03, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I like the mark even with the center electrode tip.


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Dave Cook
N375
 
Posts: 1698 | Location: Indy | Registered: November 21, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of wideopen231
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I would just go off et and mph. I do read plugs most every run,but the proof is in the time slip and/or the data logger. As for question. I like just short of full strap so as to error on safe side.




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Posts: 4236 | Location: Greensboro NC | Registered: May 24, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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? Will adding or removing fuel change where the mark lands on the plug strap?

Agree with w231, read the time slip. I prefer my methanol tune up slightly fat.
 
Posts: 2498 | Location: 53056 | Registered: December 30, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I didn’t think 12 degree cylinder heads responded well to methanol without some special considerations.
 
Posts: 119 | Location: Richmond, VA | Registered: December 07, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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We shoot for the heat mark on the bend of the strap, but tune the timing for max mph. Then back off the timing slightly for a safer tuning window.

Since building the ProCharged motor & switching to EFI. Last fall we had no heat on the ground strap. I decided to add 1.5 degrees to the boost side of the timing table. The car responded with a 3 mph gain in the 1/8 mile & turned it into a wheelie monster. We use a 1.5 degree launch retard now, along with suspension changes to help control the wheelies.

We still have no heat mark on the ground strap & need more timing. I have a revised timing table saved to try eventually with 1 degree of timing added from about 7 lbs. of boost & above. When I get back to racing 1/8 mile, I'll probably load the tune/table in.

2BKING
Relaxing


1980 Camaro
Taking the Best Working Small Tire Shyt Box & making it Greater Than Before!
3000 lbs.
Pump Gas 436
 
Posts: 2601 | Location: NV. | Registered: October 20, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
Picture of 00 DEAD ON
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quote:
Originally posted by Rodney Pryor:
I didn’t think 12 degree cylinder heads responded well to methanol without some special considerations.

My 598 @ 2020 lbs has been 4.548. That’s in my 2013 American 250” TD dragster. I think that’s not bad at all.


Brian Mollison
2013 American Dragster
2020 Sumerduck Dragway VA Top ET Champion
2017 Sumerduck Top ET & SSS Track Champion
2017 MAC Top ET Track Champion
2009 Sumerduck Dragway Va Top ET & IHRA SSS Track Champion
2008 IHRA Division 1 Top ET Bracket Final Runner-up
2007 Colonial Beach Dragway Top ET Track Champion
 
Posts: 1029 | Location: Stafford, Virginia | Registered: October 03, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post



DRR Pro
Picture of RacerVX54
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quote:
Originally posted by 00 DEAD ON:
quote:
Originally posted by Rodney Pryor:
I didn’t think 12 degree cylinder heads responded well to methanol without some special considerations.

My 598 @ 2020 lbs has been 4.548. That’s in my 2013 American 250” TD dragster. I think that’s not bad at all.


Not shaby at all


"Just Shut Up and Race"

Brian Martin
Martin Racing
5.66 @121.55
 
Posts: 1405 | Location: Va.Beach .Va | Registered: August 03, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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In lieu of a dyno I always jet by the time slip....


.
Dave



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Posts: 4480 | Location: Earth | Registered: February 08, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I know it's old school, but I have always been a plug reader, all 8 of them.

Bob
 
Posts: 3098 | Location: Lakeside, Ca | Registered: February 15, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hands down the B E S T way!


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Posts: 4534 | Location: Vacaville  | Registered: January 07, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Rodney Pryor
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quote:
Originally posted by 00 DEAD ON:
quote:
Originally posted by Rodney Pryor:
I didn’t think 12 degree cylinder heads responded well to methanol without some special considerations.

My 598 @ 2020 lbs has been 4.548. That’s in my 2013 American 250” TD dragster. I think that’s not bad at all.


It seems like you’re asking for tuning advice to pick up an engine that you think is already performing well based on your expectations.

These kind of engines usually run best on gasoline.

I would think a 598 spreadport engine would be quicker than 4.548 in a dragster.
 
Posts: 119 | Location: Richmond, VA | Registered: December 07, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by BP758:
Hands down the B E S T way!


I trust dyno and/or time slip more that myself lol. I mean faster/quicker is max power right?


.
Dave



F J B

 
Posts: 4480 | Location: Earth | Registered: February 08, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Rodney Pryor:
quote:
Originally posted by 00 DEAD ON:
quote:
Originally posted by Rodney Pryor:
I didn’t think 12 degree cylinder heads responded well to methanol without some special considerations.

My 598 @ 2020 lbs has been 4.548. That’s in my 2013 American 250” TD dragster. I think that’s not bad at all.


It seems like you’re asking for tuning advice to pick up an engine that you think is already performing well based on your expectations.

These kind of engines usually run best on gasoline.

I would think a 598 spreadport engine would be quicker than 4.548 in a dragster.


My comment isn't directly related to Mr. Pryor. It's more about similar fragile ego post(s) like this one. I understand the concept of having the quicker/faster race vehicle. But there are plenty of competitive slower/slow vehicles out there going rounds & winning.

It sounds like DEAD ON has some room for timing & possible pick up a little performance. What does it really matter, this is a bracket racing forum. Not a Wanna-Be heads up forum. Wink

2BKING
Relaxing


1980 Camaro
Taking the Best Working Small Tire Shyt Box & making it Greater Than Before!
3000 lbs.
Pump Gas 436
 
Posts: 2601 | Location: NV. | Registered: October 20, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Picture of Curly1
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You are doing the right thing adding timing and checking plugs and MPH / ET. If you are too fat you can run a little more timing but it is not best tune up.

I think when you get fuel and timing right it will not swing as much in weather changes and be more predictable with those weather changes.


https://postimg.cc/gallery/np3zpruo/
"Dunning-Kruger Effect"
-a type of Cognitive bias where people with little expertise or ability assume they have superior expertise or ability. This overestimation occurs as a result of the fact that they do not have enough knowledge to know they don't have enough knowledge.

Before you argue with someone ask yourself, "Is this person mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of a different perspective?" If not there is no point to argue.

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Posts: 4060 | Location: United States of Texas | Registered: April 02, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Curly1's comments are consistent with what i've seen. For the OP's question, my advice is go up 1 degree at a time monitor the timing mark on the plug, verify what you are seeing with performance, once it gets to the mid-point in the ground strap curve stop, I haven't seen any benefit going further than that.

The performance demonstrated by the combo isn't bad considering the weight of the car. At 2020lbs in a dragster it takes a good amount of HP to get it moving and get it to run sub 4.50. I fought the same issue with a 20 degree 615 combo, everyone will tell you it won't run on alcohol till the cows come home. I have dyno sheets showing it made 30 HP and 50 tq better with more area under the curve on injection/methanol than 1400 cfm gas carb from 6000 RPM to 7200 RPM. That's tunnel ram injection vs. MerlinIV and 1400CFM Gas on 116. IMO Area under the HP curve = ET but you gotta match the converter to the power regardless of which combo you pick. I did notice that peak tq on gas in my application was 6200 (860 ft-lbs) vs. injection was 5850 (905 ft-lbs), which leads to earlier peak HP numbers injected vs. gas and less usable RPM overall. Methanol fall off seemed worse after peak HP gas vs. injection.

Good luck on the combo. If the OP is searching for ET, i'd focus on the converter next. I highly doubt an optimized converter from a gas combo will outperform one optimized for the injected/methanol combo. Most guys i talked to with 20 degree gas combos were flashing the gas carb conv. to 7000 and shifting at 7400/7500 and crossing north of 7400/7500 1/8 mile. I found injection was difficult (not impossible) to manage that high in the RPM range.
 
Posts: 395 | Location: Pride, La | Registered: April 18, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Curly1
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quote:
Originally posted by Triple Nickel:
Curly1's comments are consistent with what i've seen. For the OP's question, my advice is go up 1 degree at a time monitor the timing mark on the plug, verify what you are seeing with performance, once it gets to the mid-point in the ground strap curve stop, I haven't seen any benefit going further than that.

The performance demonstrated by the combo isn't bad considering the weight of the car. At 2020lbs in a dragster it takes a good amount of HP to get it moving and get it to run sub 4.50. I fought the same issue with a 20 degree 615 combo, everyone will tell you it won't run on alcohol till the cows come home. I have dyno sheets showing it made 30 HP and 50 tq better with more area under the curve on injection/methanol than 1400 cfm gas carb from 6000 RPM to 7200 RPM. That's tunnel ram injection vs. MerlinIV and 1400CFM Gas on 116. IMO Area under the HP curve = ET but you gotta match the converter to the power regardless of which combo you pick. I did notice that peak tq on gas in my application was 6200 (860 ft-lbs) vs. injection was 5850 (905 ft-lbs), which leads to earlier peak HP numbers injected vs. gas and less usable RPM overall. Methanol fall off seemed worse after peak HP gas vs. injection.

Good luck on the combo. If the OP is searching for ET, i'd focus on the converter next. I highly doubt an optimized converter from a gas combo will outperform one optimized for the injected/methanol combo. Most guys i talked to with 20 degree gas combos were flashing the gas carb conv. to 7000 and shifting at 7400/7500 and crossing north of 7400/7500 1/8 mile. I found injection was difficult (not impossible) to manage that high in the RPM range.


I have been told by many that the SB2 combination will not work on alcohol, going to test and find out. The motor I am working on now when I dyno it I will be taking 3 sets of headers and several different gas carbs and an alcohol carb. If I have to I will set up and run Enderle hat injection on alcohol. Several different race gas and alcohol so I will probably be on the dyno for 2 maybe 3 days. I also run 8 O2 sensors on the dyno and my data logger and I think that helps with the tune up. Have another larger SB2 I will be building after this one I get done with this one. What I learn on this will help with the decisions on the next one.


https://postimg.cc/gallery/np3zpruo/
"Dunning-Kruger Effect"
-a type of Cognitive bias where people with little expertise or ability assume they have superior expertise or ability. This overestimation occurs as a result of the fact that they do not have enough knowledge to know they don't have enough knowledge.

Before you argue with someone ask yourself, "Is this person mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of a different perspective?" If not there is no point to argue.

4X NE2 CHAMPION. 2020 TDRA NE2 Champion
 
Posts: 4060 | Location: United States of Texas | Registered: April 02, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Alaskaracer
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quote:
Originally posted by Rodney Pryor:
I didn’t think 12 degree cylinder heads responded well to methanol without some special considerations.


I disagree. I ran those same heads on my last combo. Best I could do on gas at Bandimere speedway with dual fours, very well tuned, was a 7.56. At the same track, worse DA, injected on alky, 7.32. Only change was ditched carbs for mfi and alky...oh, and timing. It wanted more on alky than it did on gas......


Mark Goulette
Owner/Driver of the Livin' The Dream Racing dragster
www.livinthedreamracing.com
"Speed kills but it's better than going slow!"
Authorized Amsoil Retailer
 
Posts: 1503 | Location: Back home in Alaska! | Registered: February 13, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Curly1
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quote:
Originally posted by Alaskaracer:
quote:
Originally posted by Rodney Pryor:
I didn’t think 12 degree cylinder heads responded well to methanol without some special considerations.


I disagree. I ran those same heads on my last combo. Best I could do on gas at Bandimere speedway with dual fours, very well tuned, was a 7.56. At the same track, worse DA, injected on alky, 7.32. Only change was ditched carbs for mfi and alky...oh, and timing. It wanted more on alky than it did on gas......


I am in a similar situation. Find it strange that most combinations work well on alcohol but this certain one will not..... On SB2 I am building was told alcohol will never work so I am going to do most of my dyno testing with gas carbs but going to try a alcohol carb also and if I have to will try MFI. Depends on how it goes on dyno.


https://postimg.cc/gallery/np3zpruo/
"Dunning-Kruger Effect"
-a type of Cognitive bias where people with little expertise or ability assume they have superior expertise or ability. This overestimation occurs as a result of the fact that they do not have enough knowledge to know they don't have enough knowledge.

Before you argue with someone ask yourself, "Is this person mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of a different perspective?" If not there is no point to argue.

4X NE2 CHAMPION. 2020 TDRA NE2 Champion
 
Posts: 4060 | Location: United States of Texas | Registered: April 02, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of wideopen231
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While no real dog in this fight. I have never understood why this combo will not run on alky. Like Curly said every other combo seems fine b ut this one combo has been said to n ot work with alky.

Would love to hear explanation as to why not. What makes it hate running on alcohol?




America home of free. Brought to you by 2nd amendment.
 
Posts: 4236 | Location: Greensboro NC | Registered: May 24, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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