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| The EFI Thread | Login/Join |
| DRR Elite |
We could all use a distraction right now. Some of us have made the jump to EFI. Many are considering it. (And I know some wouldn't no matter what....I understand!) Thought I would start this thread to let folks share their EFI experiences and questions. Have at it! Foxtrot Juliet Bravo | ||
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| DRR Elite |
There are OEM systems, and ways to program those. Also there are piggyback systems that work with the OEM system. Then there are stand along systems. If you are dealing with an LS engine with all the efi in tact and the ecu included, programming the stock ecu may be a possibility. For full boogie race cars, the stand alone deals make sense. You have full control over things you didn't even know you should control. LOL. And if you are adding boost, stand alone efi systems are hard to beat. There are throttle body kits that tremendously reduce the complexity of an efi install. You get all the control with the only draw back being the higher injection point and maybe some limitations with fuel volume and type. I have seen the larger Holley TB system on a 900 hp engine making passes as good or better than a carb within a couple runs. The ultimate is generally multiport fuel injection. You can control the fuel volume and timing for each cylinder, if you like. Some of the brands out there for ecu's: Holley Haltech Comsync Megasquirt Big Stuff Many of these systems incorporate a dash that can be used for all gauges. Most of them incorporate data logging. Foxtrot Juliet Bravo | |||
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| DRR S/Pro |
Love mine so far J.R. Baxter ""Fathom the hypocrisy of a Government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured ..but not everyone must prove they are a citizen." 2024 Miller Rolla Competition Engines ProCharger Hoosier Tires Abruzzi | |||
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| DRR Pro |
Great thread! Here's my take: Until you can prove a performance advantage, both ET and consistency over a carb or mechanical injection, EFI will be years away for bracket racing. Can an EFI car repeat...absolutely! I've sat in the stands at SGMP and watched cars running 3.50's repeat run after run, but not with the margins we look for in bracket racing. However...if I were building a new car or updating, I would personally put EFI on, if for nothing more than the data logging capability and the ability to program "if and thens". Leaps and bounds ahead of RacePak as far as sample rates and processing speed. Look at the typical NOS car. With EFI you have full progressive control, individual cylinder timing control, fuel control, and endless safety "if and thens" (fuel pressure, bottle pressure, pan vac, etc.). You can even set them up to auto purge to a specified bottle pressure....not to mention the use of wheel speed, or even engine rpm as a way to manage the power. Cost wise, your biggest additional expense is injectors. If you add up all the parts (gauges, data logger, sensors, carb, ignition, coils, etc. and compare to a complete EFI system, the injectors are what drives the cost up. Based on your list of systems...I'm not partial to any...I will install whatever the customer wants, but in my personal car it would be a full up Holley or FuelTech (purely based on my experiences with tuners and customer support). Ranking them in order (personally) 1. Holley 2. FuelTech 3. Haltech 4. Big Stuff (IF it is the latest release) 5. FAST 6. Start back at the top... Dykes & Strippers Custom Wiring Auto Meter Authorized Dealer CleanYourTrailer.com Horse Power Sales USADragRacingChat.com Fab Shop Race Flow Development 245" Harry Clack 399 inches of Horse Power Sales Power 1.031, 2.978, 4.640 at 147.47 | |||
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| DRR Elite |
Great to see you chime in! You have touched more of these than most anyone! I will say that injectors vary GREATLY in cost. The bigger ones tend to be pricier. 220's are a sweet spot. I know a guy that sells them very reasonably. You can make 1000 hp or more on them using methanol. You can get much larger injectors, at a much much higher cost. I believe Billet Atomizer is the brand that makes some giant ones. And they are very proud of them. Most systems will allow you to stagger two sets, so you can idle with the one set nicely, and start a second set whenever you choose. I'm cheap, and had MFI nozzles and a nitrous solenoid. The solenoid opens at a set boost pressure, and feeds the nozzles. Then I just tune with the injectors. Works very well. Takes up less room than a second fuel rail and injector as well. I run the top that Megasquirt offers. It is very powerful and full of features, and runs well and does everything I ask of it. And frankly, the initial setup of the software was a b1tch. They make them universal so you can put them on anything from a go cart to a pro mod engine. And they work great. But figuring out all the settings was extremely time consuming. Some of the features are not very intuitive also. Also customer support wise, they aren't drag racers. They figure you can go drive down the street and dial the thing in. Well, I can't do that with a rail. So the learning curve was insanely steep. If you are techy and don't mind poking around for a good long time in the software, and experimenting, then it may be perfect. They are at a fairly low price point as well. The service folks require 24 hours to get back to you, and if they didn't understand or answer your emailed question, you get to wait another 24 hours. Phone service is hard to get through. It's a very good product that needs some refinement and better support IMO. Comsync I think has a very good product with good support, but they are at a price point that makes no sense for a drag racer. Holley is widely used and folks seem to be happy with them. Holley is getting very good at making these things DIY friendly. I totally forgot FuelTech and they are very popular now too. Foxtrot Juliet Bravo | |||
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| DRR Elite |
Which ECU are you using? Foxtrot Juliet Bravo | |||
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| DRR Elite |
Run by a drag racer. Sells and cleans/services https://www.facebook.com/FuelInjectorServices/ Foxtrot Juliet Bravo | |||
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| DRR S/Pro |
Fueltech FT600 from when I bracket raced several years ago my Fast system was very consistent. It was better then my carb but not quicker or faster. Looks like this new setup is going to be even better, even going 3.9-4.0 in the 1/8 J.R. Baxter ""Fathom the hypocrisy of a Government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured ..but not everyone must prove they are a citizen." 2024 Miller Rolla Competition Engines ProCharger Hoosier Tires Abruzzi | |||
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DRR Sportsman |
Bucky, I worked with one of the megasquirt deals. Support was like pulling teeth as you mentioned. I eventually came to the conclusion that I was dealing with nerds that only knew 4 cylinder engines and only had a general idea what drag racing is. Very frustrating. Never again. Dave Koehler - Koehler Injection - http://www.koehlerinjection.com Fuel Injection - Nitrous Charger - Nitrous Master Software - Balancing 99% of fuel injection problems are electric. | |||
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| DRR Sportsman |
Did MS on another car. Same deal. Finding someone who knows what a bracket car's needs are in relation to EFI proves to be difficult. Lots of knowledge on turbo V8's V6's and a ton of 4 cylinder stuff, but it's 99% hot rod stuff and heads-up stuff that won't repeat to where "we" (bracket racers) need it to. I have an EFI car and a MFI (rons) car. Much prefer the MFI for racing, EFI for driving on the street (that car does double duty). The electronics have to be a LOT faster than what's currently out there to come anywhere close to repeating like MFI can. I'm playing with this Mustang (EEC-IV) and thought they were the cat's meow for years. Then I am finding out it's limitations-and they are many. 12Mhz, 16 bit. Crude by comparison. The newer stuff is a little better but also has a lot more "stuff" to deal with--and therefore a lot more ways to screw it up. I ain't real computer savvy, so I'm forcing myself to learn this stuff a little (need the knowledge for work anyway), and I'm struggling with it. Really didn't have much issue with MS many moons ago but it was mostly set up and all I did was make minor adjustments (4 cyl turbo) and it was ok. There was a lot left to be desired though. | |||
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DRR Trophy |
I've been tuning my brother's EFI dragster for 4 years. He started out with a dumbed down EFI Technology system sold by a guy east of here. Fundamentally it worked but the injectors sold with the system hated fuel pressure above 52psi. That took 1 1/2 years to diagnose and fix. The box also didn't have synchronized (sequential) injection capability and wouldn't drive Atomizers. (Fundamentally, it was a glorified "D-Jet" system - think old VW or old Cadillac Seville.) Other than that, when the weather stayed constant, the car repeated very well, enough to win a few money races. The EFI technologies ECU stopped being supported (I got to be a pest with them) so I went with the Holley system and Billet Atomizers looking for more consistency and a modern system. The Holley stuff isn't as plug and play as one would like so the Dual Sync was sent back and Hall effects were used for crank and cam triggers. Also, the Holley was not playing well with the MSD and 3 software releases later it finally did. Closed loop is a wonderful thing and a tune can be had in 3 passes once a guy verifies all 8 injector connectors are plugged in firmly. (I now know what a miss sounds like during a burnout with merge collectors bouncing the sound off the timing tower.) The Holley comes with a great "underground" support system due to many tuners and installers but their tech support is lacking. Their interface is reasonably easy to navigate, which is absolutely necessary for over the phone diagnostics. Holley does still need to mature as an EFI OEM and tailor the solution for its customers better, in my opinion. Both systems are brain-dead easy for dry nitrous Is the car more consistent now? When there is an hour between rounds, the data says it is. It is easy to predict a dial for weather and wind now. Now the issue is when rounds are less than 30 minutes apart, the car picks up. Once a "hot" dial adjustment is added to the process, the driver should be able to go a few more rounds. If a guy already has a data acquisition system, it's not as expensive as some folks think to go EFI. I only bring this up for two things; one, the driveshaft sensor not connected to the fuel system rule, and two, the dedicated data acq downloads much faster than Holley. 1-1 1/2 minute downloads are unacceptable between rounds, in my opinion. My brother likes his unicorn setup, a S/Pro BBM dragster with methanol EFI, and I'll continue to enable him to race. He may not agree but I'm thinking of changing the system again to somebody else as the tech changes pretty fast now compared to 5 years ago. My background is as a former ASE Master Tech, running chassis dyno hot rod tuning, Accel Super Ram stuff in the mid 90's, Dynojet piggybacks on EFI snowmobiles for several years and now play with the EFI mentioned above.This message has been edited. Last edited by: Rick!, | |||
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| DRR Elite |
I will say with all my difficulties getting the car up and running with the MS, once I got over the learning curve, the car has been quite consistent. At some point I just end up telling myself to keep my hands off all the buttons and race. LOL. There are infinite adjustments you can make. Then I added the turbos and started with a whole new set of learnings. Again, if I keep my fingers off of it and don't try to go fast, it will repeat really well in the 7.20-7.30 range. But that is right at the tip over point for me for tire shake with my regular setup. So more learnings for sure. I have had a couple "angels" who have taken pity on me and helped me with understanding the different aspects of the software. Without them, I would have sh1tcanned it and stuck a different brand on it. There are so many features, that it would have been a blessing to have experience levels that turn off a bunch of the features so you don't get hung up in things that are way out of your understanding level at that point. The friend that put the Holley Large TBI unit on his dragster had some help, but had it installed in the course of a week and was making perfect runs within two hours at the track. I was uber envious. Foxtrot Juliet Bravo | |||
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| DRR Elite |
On the subject of closed loop vs open loop: There are strong opinions on both sides of this issue and good points both ways. Most everyone uses closed loop with some limitations to how much it will adjust to get a base tune and even refine an existing tune. It's a time saver for sure. But the question is: Do you race open or closed? Do you let the o2 sensor adjust for weather conditions? I'm old school. The mfi kept the same tune regardless of weather, and I predicted based upon the weather. So that is what I am doing still. I may run closed loop for the first run and adjust the tune if the weather is drastically different. After that I go back to open. My software will also allow me to run open, and it will analyze the run after downloading it and make suggestions. i can accept those suggestions or not. I guess I'm hesitant to allow the ecu to change the tune in eliminations. What if the o2 sensor starts to drift or go bad? I don't want to throw out a round because I relied on it. Others will point out that letting it adjust for weather changes will tighten up the spread across a day. Probably true. It's a matter of trust for me. Also noteworthy is that early in a run, the rpm climb can be so rapid that your target afr is out the window and the ecu is going to struggle to adjust that quickly anyhow. I usually limit that part out of what the ecu can adjust. You blow through it so quickly that it probably is irrelevant anyhow. Under low load high engine acceleration situations I think it pays to throw some extra timing at it and a bit of extra fuel as well. The load is so light that detonation is hardly a concern. Foxtrot Juliet Bravo | |||
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| DRR Pro |
Are you using a Dominator or HP? Upgraded to V5?I believe the download speeds have gotten better with each Version? The one area Holley truly needs to work on is the ability to test outputs!!! With FuelTech, you can test every out put with a single mouse click...injectors, coils, etc. Dykes & Strippers Custom Wiring Auto Meter Authorized Dealer CleanYourTrailer.com Horse Power Sales USADragRacingChat.com Fab Shop Race Flow Development 245" Harry Clack 399 inches of Horse Power Sales Power 1.031, 2.978, 4.640 at 147.47 | |||
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| DRR Elite |
Great points. My ebay 210's or 220's depending on who is talking run well and don't hang open at 100 psi base. My regulator allows up to 10 psi additional to follow boost. No issues yet. Fuel rail alignment is important at that pressure to assure the orings will not fold over and soak the back of your sweatshirt in seconds. Being able to run injectors of different impedance is an important feature for the ecu. I tried to get the MS3 Pro Ultimate to play well with my digital 7 msd. That was a pain in the a22. I gave up and went with 8 coil on plugs. Never a problem since that switch. Much simpler, except for the extra wires. I was bound and determined to use that msd. I just gave up eventually. On the subject of downloading data: I'm sick of cords. I'm going to look into a wifi unit so I can do everything from the trailer. Hopefully I can get one that accepts hookup from the Racepak too and cords will be completely out of my life. One advantage of the techy side of the MS3 is that the possibilities are kinda endless. Lots of guys using tablets for dashes and those can be amazing. Some can do touch screen feedback and that can be handy. If it were legal, you could use the built in delay box and adjust with the touch screen. If it were legal (which it is not), you could literally run the entire car through the ecu and touch screen. Delay box gone. With PDM or relays, you could eliminate most switches. I'm not at that comfort level frankly. The flexibility of the MS system makes it difficult to learn, but gives some extra options that some other systems do not. Foxtrot Juliet Bravo | |||
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| DRR Sportsman |
The King of bracket race EFI is TJ Tracey. Running EFI for 20 years. Won the million back in the day. His company is Motorvation (901) 275-2500 http://www.motorvationtuner.com/ | |||
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| DRR Elite |
If I recall, Brian Folk ran EFI for some time. As another EFI expert shows up to the party! Thanks Greg! Foxtrot Juliet Bravo | |||
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| DRR Trophy |
I've been running EFI for 10 years now. TJ Tracey helped get me started. I agree with Greg Kelley, TJ is very knowledgeable about EFI for bracket racing. I upgraded to the Holley HP system at the beginning of 2019. I've found it to be very flexible and easy to use. Like mentioned in an earlier post, I have challenges getting a good clean integration with my MSD Digital 7 system. I just upgraded to the version 5 software and associated firmware and I'm in the middle of retesting the integration. Buckey, what kind of issues were you seeing with your Digital 7? I converted to EFI from MFI and have found it to be useful in achieving a consistent AFR throughout a run and over the racing season with all of the air density variations that can be encountered. I'm using the Holley in closed loop mode but with some constraints such as starting after AFR settles down after being on the 2-step and only adjusting the pulse width a certain percentage. The car has been pretty consistent, but no more than a good, well tuned MFI or carb. Performance is no better. The value I get from EFI is troubleshooting an odd run that might be the result of track variation, weather variation or car malfunction/failure. Rick!, log downloads with the HP version 4 and 5 systems are taking seconds to pull down for me. With so many ways to track and adjust, I too have to back off on tweeking. Don Kosanka | |||
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| DRR Elite |
I would get to the point where I could get a consistent timing number, turn off the ecu, and when I reset, it was completely different. I have heard others say the MS deals don't play well with msd. I switched to the cop's, and everything worked perfectly. I don't know what was going wrong. Foxtrot Juliet Bravo | |||
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| DRR Trophy |
I'm using the Dominator as I wanted two O2 sensors. The software is V5.130 right now as that one fixed the conversation between the ECU and the MSD 7AL3. I can only record 30 seconds worth of data at 40Hz which precludes any burnout data. This 40 seconds is still 4MB of data where the other system is 1.4MB for over 2 minutes of data. I like watching the burnout for any dumbassery by the driver hitting the limiter and general AFR. My workaround is to use the "race" data acq system for run analysis after adding a few more O2 bungs to the headers so both systems can measure AFR. As for closed loop, we are going to run closed loop the first part of the season for a few reasons. If I watch MAP and Baro from 4 East coast races he hit last Fall, fueling will move 10-20pph the way the map is set up. Another driver is the pressure in the tunnel ram plenum goes positive and then bounces a bit around 500ft out. Closed loop will keep fuel flow a bit more consistent and compensate for Baro and plenum pressure better. I'm with ya on the output tests. It's stupid what you have to do just to check Nitrous input/output. Turning off the added fuel to do it is fundamentally insane. Tuning last September, we oopsed on turning the nitrous enrichment table back on and made a hit with a 300 shot. Luckily, closed loop was on and it added a bunch of fuel but nowhere what we wanted. The AFR told us we hit our target but it is just one example of where Holley can improve the system. | |||
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