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DRR Pro
posted
I have a question about mfi Nozzle Bodies.

I presently have Enderle nozzle bodies in my sbc manifold that came with my engine over 10 years ago. My manifold has a toilet on top of it and Rons BV. I recently purchased Rons nozzle bodies and the tip fuel outlet is very different from the Enderle.

My question is this. Is anyone familiar with both of these different nozzle body tip openings and do you have an opinion of which could be better?
 
Posts: 2518 | Location: 53056 | Registered: December 30, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of Dave Koehler
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For your app either one will get the fuel in there. HP difference given the same amount of fuel induced?, nope.


Dave Koehler - Koehler Injection - http://www.koehlerinjection.com
Fuel Injection - Nitrous Charger - Nitrous Master Software - Balancing
99% of fuel injection problems are electric.
 
Posts: 356 | Location: Urbana, IL 61802 | Registered: December 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
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Thanks Dave. You don’t accept private messaging on this site and hoped you’d respond to this. Mark
 
Posts: 2518 | Location: 53056 | Registered: December 30, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of Dave Koehler
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I can always be found via email or phone.
PMs are kind of like tweets to me. Not all that helpful and slow since it depends on one looking for them.


Dave Koehler - Koehler Injection - http://www.koehlerinjection.com
Fuel Injection - Nitrous Charger - Nitrous Master Software - Balancing
99% of fuel injection problems are electric.
 
Posts: 356 | Location: Urbana, IL 61802 | Registered: December 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Top Comp
Picture of Curly1
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I have found a big difference in the Enderle flow rates on the non flowed ones. So now I always use it he flowed ones only. I also like that Enderle has a selection of nozzles very close for fine tuning. I run 8 O2 sensors and often change a nozzle up or down one size which is very minor. For the nozzle body itself I do not think it makes much of a difference.


https://postimg.cc/gallery/np3zpruo/
"Dunning-Kruger Effect"
-a type of Cognitive bias where people with little expertise or ability assume they have superior expertise or ability. This overestimation occurs as a result of the fact that they do not have enough knowledge to know they don't have enough knowledge.

Before you argue with someone ask yourself, "Is this person mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of a different perspective?" If not there is no point to argue.

4X NE2 CHAMPION. 2020 TDRA NE2 Champion
 
Posts: 4095 | Location: United States of Texas | Registered: April 02, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
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quote:
Originally posted by Curly1:
I have found a big difference in the Enderle flow rates on the non flowed ones. So now I always use it he flowed ones only. I also like that Enderle has a selection of nozzles very close for fine tuning. I run 8 O2 sensors and often change a nozzle up or down one size which is very minor. For the nozzle body itself I do not think it makes much of a difference.


Are you saying that you have staggered nozzle jets .. ie one or more may have a #36 and the rest #37?

I have Enderle now and almost purchased again. A set of Enderle nozzle bodys and flowed jets are $100 less than Rons.
 
Posts: 2518 | Location: 53056 | Registered: December 30, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of Dave Koehler
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I need to clear something up concerning enderle's "flowed" nozzles.
IF you currently run a standard .036 nozzle and you request some of the flowed nozzles and get some marked 30-36 you will be soggy rich.

A 30-36 indicates it began life as a .030.

They don't flow those to a set base number.
A minion sits down and starts whittling away until he gets 8 that flow somewhat close together regardless of the final flow and at least closer than the production nozzles.
So your new flowe 30-36s may flow as much as a standard .040.

This is the reason they are only a buck or two more than standards. Trust me on this part. If I sit down and make a matched set of standard .036 nozzles it takes a hell of a lot longer to do than a couple of bucks ea. Not easy.

This flowed nozzle thing started about 5 yrs ago or so. I haven't gotten anyone to admit it yet but I suspect it started in order to use up some std. nozzles that came out flat wrong in production. Smile It's a smart thing but kind of muddies the water.

A few years ago I made a set of sweet flowed main jets for a friend's Christmas present.
His response, slightly delayed was "Gee, thanks so much......but I don't think I can tune that well! chuckle

So, my takeaway on this is
1: if you run standard E nozzles and need a different size, be sure to ask for standards.
2: Will you be quicker with the flowed jets? Likely not as your tuneup just changed.
3: Can you tune that good? Honestly most don't have a reason to try other than top fuel.
4: If you have the system flowed with the "flowed" E nozzles that's fine but don't bother comparing nozzle sizes with the 90% of your pit neighbors that use the std nozzles. Zero in common.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Dave Koehler,


Dave Koehler - Koehler Injection - http://www.koehlerinjection.com
Fuel Injection - Nitrous Charger - Nitrous Master Software - Balancing
99% of fuel injection problems are electric.
 
Posts: 356 | Location: Urbana, IL 61802 | Registered: December 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post



DRR Top Comp
Picture of Curly1
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I only use the "E" Flowed nozzles and yes I do stagger them One of the things I have learned with the Enderle hat on dyno and at the track with the 8 O2's is at high mph the hat has a Ram Air effect on rear cylinders making them leaner than forward cylinders. No real difference at low RPM or on the dyno. Now it did not make much if any difference on the ET or MPH but I am able to tune it better. This also may be worse on my SBC than say a BBC because when the butterflies are open the air goes direct to rear cylinders but has to make a small u turn and go back forward some to front cylinders.


https://postimg.cc/gallery/np3zpruo/
"Dunning-Kruger Effect"
-a type of Cognitive bias where people with little expertise or ability assume they have superior expertise or ability. This overestimation occurs as a result of the fact that they do not have enough knowledge to know they don't have enough knowledge.

Before you argue with someone ask yourself, "Is this person mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of a different perspective?" If not there is no point to argue.

4X NE2 CHAMPION. 2020 TDRA NE2 Champion
 
Posts: 4095 | Location: United States of Texas | Registered: April 02, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of Dave Koehler
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Curly,
Part of the reason you see that is the hat design. Years ago I had access to a huge air flow bench. Turns out there is a dead air spot right behind the butterflies. Just like valves and seats air does not like sharp turns. Hence the tall hats with the long necks with a slow radius slowly came into being.


Dave Koehler - Koehler Injection - http://www.koehlerinjection.com
Fuel Injection - Nitrous Charger - Nitrous Master Software - Balancing
99% of fuel injection problems are electric.
 
Posts: 356 | Location: Urbana, IL 61802 | Registered: December 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
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Dave, HERE'S what is posted on Killer Rons website and Monroe said the exact same to me when asked. This is part of the reason I decided to change to these in my next build.

Opinion?
 
Posts: 2518 | Location: 53056 | Registered: December 30, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR S/Pro
Picture of Big Steve
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quote:
Originally posted by Curly1:
I only use the "E" Flowed nozzles and yes I do stagger them One of the things I have learned with the Enderle hat on dyno and at the track with the 8 O2's is at high mph the hat has a Ram Air effect on rear cylinders making them leaner than forward cylinders. No real difference at low RPM or on the dyno. Now it did not make much if any difference on the ET or MPH but I am able to tune it better. This also may be worse on my SBC than say a BBC because when the butterflies are open the air goes direct to rear cylinders but has to make a small u turn and go back forward some to front cylinders.


Have you thought about getting an adapter to move your hat forward a couple of inches?
 
Posts: 2465 | Location: Moving back to the door side | Registered: April 30, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of Dave Koehler
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quote:
Originally posted by markemark:
Dave, HERE'S what is posted on Killer Rons website and Monroe said the exact same to me when asked. This is part of the reason I decided to change to these in my next build.

Opinion?

Nothing wrong with that idea.
If you are going for a 1 to 1 change in flow expect to do no main changes.
If there is a difference in flow then be prepared to change your main jet. No biggie.
If they happen to flow more with the same main jet you will see a lower psi at X rpm.
If it happens to pick up with more flow then you were just too lean to begin with.
Which brings us to Alky tune rule 1: When in doubt richen it up first.


Dave Koehler - Koehler Injection - http://www.koehlerinjection.com
Fuel Injection - Nitrous Charger - Nitrous Master Software - Balancing
99% of fuel injection problems are electric.
 
Posts: 356 | Location: Urbana, IL 61802 | Registered: December 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Koehler:
If you are going for a 1 to 1 change in flow expect to do no main changes.
If there is a difference in flow then be prepared to change your main jet. No biggie.
If they happen to flow more with the same main jet you will see a lower psi at X rpm.
If it happens to pick up with more flow then you were just too lean to begin with.
Which brings us to Alky tune rule 1: When in doubt richen it up first.


This is the reason I called Killer Rons.

The Enderle nozzle jets I have are #34 and I use a #60 pill as being the most consistent for 1/8 mile ET. #56/58 pills gives the slightly highest MPH over the #60 with my present engine set-up.

Because Rons does not offer #34 nozzle jets, Monroe said go #35 and install a #70 pill to start. I believe what he suggested and what you wrote with Tune Rule #1 mirror each other.
 
Posts: 2518 | Location: 53056 | Registered: December 30, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Top Comp
Picture of Curly1
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Big Steve:
quote:
Originally posted by Curly1:
I only use the "E" Flowed nozzles and yes I do stagger them One of the things I have learned with the Enderle hat on dyno and at the track with the 8 O2's is at high mph the hat has a Ram Air effect on rear cylinders making them leaner than forward cylinders. No real difference at low RPM or on the dyno. Now it did not make much if any difference on the ET or MPH but I am able to tune it better. This also may be worse on my SBC than say a BBC because when the butterflies are open the air goes direct to rear cylinders but has to make a small u turn and go back forward some to front cylinders.


Have you thought about getting an adapter to move your hat forward a couple of inches?


Actually I have thought about making an adapter that raises it up and forward about 2 inches also with a divider in there to help direct the air more towards the front. Just have not done it yet. It is not a major deal to me because I have jetted each cylinder as they need but there may be a few horsepower if I did.


https://postimg.cc/gallery/np3zpruo/
"Dunning-Kruger Effect"
-a type of Cognitive bias where people with little expertise or ability assume they have superior expertise or ability. This overestimation occurs as a result of the fact that they do not have enough knowledge to know they don't have enough knowledge.

Before you argue with someone ask yourself, "Is this person mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of a different perspective?" If not there is no point to argue.

4X NE2 CHAMPION. 2020 TDRA NE2 Champion
 
Posts: 4095 | Location: United States of Texas | Registered: April 02, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post



DRR Sportsman
Picture of sr4440
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by markemark:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Koehler:
If you are going for a 1 to 1 change in flow expect to do no main changes.
If there is a difference in flow then be prepared to change your main jet. No biggie.
If they happen to flow more with the same main jet you will see a lower psi at X rpm.
If it happens to pick up with more flow then you were just too lean to begin with.
Which brings us to Alky tune rule 1: When in doubt richen it up first.


This is the reason I called Killer Rons.

The Enderle nozzle jets I have are #34 and I use a #60 pill as being the most consistent for 1/8 mile ET. #56/58 pills gives the slightly highest MPH over the #60 with my present engine set-up.

Because Rons does not offer #34 nozzle jets, Monroe said go #35 and install a #70 pill to start. I believe what he suggested and what you wrote with Tune Rule #1 mirror each other.


running the numbers, you new combo will put 5.31% less fuel into the engine.

if you used a .060 pill with .035 nozzles you would add 1.15% more fuel to the engine.

Joe


Without data, you’re just another guy with an opinion.
 
Posts: 1301 | Location: TEXAS | Registered: February 07, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by sr4440:
quote:
Originally posted by markemark:
This is the reason I called Killer Rons.

The Enderle nozzle jets I have are #34 and I use a #60 pill as being the most consistent for 1/8 mile ET. #56/58 pills gives the slightly highest MPH over the #60 with my present engine set-up.

Because Rons does not offer #34 nozzle jets, Monroe said go #35 and install a #70 pill to start. I believe what he suggested and what you wrote with Tune Rule #1 mirror each other.


running the numbers, you new combo will put 5.31% less fuel into the engine.

if you used a .060 pill with .035 nozzles you would add 1.15% more fuel to the engine.

Joe


Thanks for the advice Joe.

So your calculations say that a 64 pill might be more correct than the 70 when increasing to 35 nozzle jets to start with… Yes?

Here’s why I ended up with a 60 pill in the injection. Back 4 years ago I had the new engine torn apart for an oil problem. The shop (different than the one that built it) that did the work decided that the 102* I had the cam set to was wrong in there opinion and it needed to be set to 104* which they did without consulting me.

At that time I was using a #66 pill. When I got the car back on the track it was 2 mph and 0.18 slower . I ended up with #56 -58 pill to get 1 mph and 0.10 et back from what I lost. Later switching between pills the #60 seemed to be the most consistent given a broad weather range.

I’m building a new engine now (different builder) that will be a duplicate to what I now have with the exact same cam and it WILL be degreed to 102*. My bet is this engine will be as fast as the one that originally had the cam set to 102*.
 
Posts: 2518 | Location: 53056 | Registered: December 30, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Sportsman
Picture of sr4440
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Mark

With a 35 nozzle a .061 will give you .50% more. A .062 will give you .15% less.

a .060 with a 35 is .19% less then a .034 with a 58.

this is the splitting hairs level of tuning. LOL

hope this helps

Joe


Without data, you’re just another guy with an opinion.
 
Posts: 1301 | Location: TEXAS | Registered: February 07, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
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MarkeMark,

You had also asked about Nozzle bodies and if the nozzle body can make a difference. Yes the nozzle body can make a difference in the tune-up needed. Many years ago ron's nozzle bodies had one aeration hole. Now they have 3. This will effect the tune-up needed. Also, if a person ever mixes old with new nozzle bodies they will chase their tail on the tune-up and unpredicable missfire. I imagine the same thing can happen comparing across brand of nozzle bodies also.

Scott
 
Posts: 1838 | Location: Illinois | Registered: August 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
DRR Pro
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Thanks Scott.

Yes, the new Rons nozzle bodys I received have 3 aeration holes. I have Enderle now that have only 1 aeration hole. BUT, Enderle does not use a filter and cover over these aeration holes like Rons does. When I asked Monroe about this, he said that Rons earlier nozzle bodys had only 1 hole. And when I asked about not running the filters and covers, he said some do this as well.

The Enderle nozzle bodys fuel exit is completely different from Rons.

I believe calling Killer Rons before the sale has given me the advice I need to make the best choice on where to start with the jet and pill size for my new engine mfi installation.

I will be able to compare which system I find to be better as the engine the Rons nozzles / jets are going into is an exact duplicate new engine of what I am presently using.

Thanks again for your post. Mark
 
Posts: 2518 | Location: 53056 | Registered: December 30, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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