DRR S/Pro
| One less thing to go wrong |
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DRR S/Pro
| quote: Either way is good
32* of timing @ 1000 rpm just seems crazy to me. But a lot of people do, and have, done it w/out incident. Old weighted mechanical advance was simple enough to comprehend. A gradual upward slope as rpm progressed. With todays ability to monitor spark advance on street cars, it doesn't come close to that scenario. I can't decipher any kind of a pattern. I guess there is so many inputs it's forever changing.
Illegitimi non carborundum
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| Posts: 2371 | Location: OKC, OK | Registered: February 15, 2008 |
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DRR Pro
| consider two situations; *The first is a dedicated drag race engine with a big cam and high stall converter and stiff rear gear. In this situation, the engine only operates at wide-open throttle in a narrow RPM range. Plus, with a big cam, full-timing idles better. And also, because of the big cam, cylinder pressure is bled off at cranking speed so kicking the starter is not a problem. Think about the number of drag race engine you see with a crank trigger pickup. [fixed timing] And MSD sells a distributor with locked timing so it is a popular option. *The second situation, is a stock or mild engine that is daily street driven. In this situation an advance curve tailored to the engine need is desirable. Modern, EFI, computer equipped engines vary the ignition widely to suit the need at the moment.
Larry Woodfin
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| Posts: 1873 | Location: Kilgore TX | Registered: March 12, 2004 |
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DRR Pro
| I’ve seen written, that some of those with high compression using a start retard, have experienced kick back when cranking, the same as the lower timing you’d experience from a mechanical advance. |
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DRR Pro
| I have experimented with both electronic timing retard and mechanical advance. In both cases, with a fully modified drag race engine, fixed timing is best for the engines I build. Fixed timing in a full race engine has enough benefits to overcome any shortcomings.
Larry Woodfin
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| Posts: 1873 | Location: Kilgore TX | Registered: March 12, 2004 |
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DRR Pro
| most of the time the kick-back is due to a lean condition.we have had high compression motors that needed no retard(11 deg),and actually would crank better on full timing.most all of mine i pull 10.my experience is the further i got from a lower hp motor the more it liked fixed timing,as mentioned above
honesty is the best policy,insanity is a better deffense 1.036, 6.16@ 224
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DRR Trophy
| I was running a 500 cu in former pro stock motor, 15 to 1 1030hp, 38 degress timing. I used a MSD start retard with 10 degrees retard. I would regularly break flex plates and starters. Took the start retard off and no more problems. quote: Originally posted by Joe C: I agree 100% with markemark. Been there, done that.
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| Posts: 42 | Location: Jacksonville, FL | Registered: August 28, 2011 |
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DRR Pro
| Programmable ignition can allow one to control the locked advance for reduced timing when starting (and running) if desired. This method can quickly give the operator the ability to modify for best results. I too use start retard, does what I want it to, and looks like this in programming. The faster the engine turns the less start retard it allows. |
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DRR S/Pro
| Starting kick back issues are caused by mainly timing issues, voltage/current issues or lean staring conditions (mostly with alky vs gas).
Timing Issues For crank trigger setups, I have seen issues develop from distributor moving causing spark to jump to the wrong cylinder. Those using slip collar distributors are really prone to this issue. For those using start retard in the 10 degree range or more, need to make sure your rotor is phased correctly. Even more important to do this with small diameter caps such as the small crab caps.
Voltage/Current Problems When cranking your motor, the system needs to maintain at least 9 volts when measured at the starter! If it won't then the starter can be over powered by spark and ignition in a firing cylinder before TDC and push the crank backwards. Other than battery issues, most of this is usually caused by bad grounds or wire that's too small for the job causing too much voltage drop at the starter.
Lean Start Condition I really haven't seen this with a gas deal but have many times with alky, especially on the first startup of the day.
Start Timing Retard I wish I could say if you have this then do that but in all the motors I have had, each one wanted something different (I use a crank trigger) so don't be afraid to try different retard values. Same for your startup procedures with carbs, one pump, two pumps etc, crack the throttle blades, leave then closed, etc. If you are having starting issues with no other issues as noted above, try different start procedures to see what works. Probably need one for cold and warm starts. |
| Posts: 2163 | Location: Tewksbury, MA,USA | Registered: November 03, 2000 |
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DRR Top Comp
| One less thing to move around and cause problems. On most drag cars we have plenty of stall so we are not really loading motor down at low RPM so mechanical advance is not needed IMHO. https://postimg.cc/gallery/np3zpruo/"Dunning-Kruger Effect" -a type of Cognitive bias where people with little expertise or ability assume they have superior expertise or ability. This overestimation occurs as a result of the fact that they do not have enough knowledge to know they don't have enough knowledge. Before you argue with someone ask yourself, "Is this person mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of a different perspective?" If not there is no point to argue. 4X NE2 CHAMPION. 2020 TDRA NE2 Champion |
| Posts: 4295 | Location: United States of Texas | Registered: April 02, 2011 |
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