Engine size change - Convertor question

October 28, 2021, 09:34 AM

Mike Rietow

quote:
Originally posted by chasracer:
I think changing the cam might be cheaper. Not exactly sure how much 8 Jesel 1.8 rockers cost today.

Already run a 4.10 gear.

The heads are the BB-2X CNC which are 341 port volume and supposedly 365+ area at .700 lift. They have the 2.30 intake valves.

Does anyone know a cam part number close to the R-M cam?

Changing the cam cheaper than putting a 1.8 rocker on the intake?

I'm not following / understanding your math $$$???

@.050 282/294
.427/.420

Gross lift .720 - .768/.714
Lobe Sep: 110
Installed at 108 ICL

October 28, 2021, 09:46 AM

SLICKSTER

You can buy that cam direct from Rher-Morrison. In my opinion the combo you have will like the 112 lobe separation. We have had several 555-565 combinations and they will be in the 4.64-4.78 et in you typical 4 link pipe rack with an 8 inch depending on driver size. Aly 1150, and fuel injection on these motors.

October 28, 2021, 10:30 AM

chasracer

quote:
Originally posted by Mike Rietow:

Changing the cam cheaper than putting a 1.8 rocker on the intake?

I'm not following / understanding your math $$$???

Racer Net Price on an individual Jesel Intake Rocker (Sportsman) is $92 each. That's $736, R-M charges $500 for the camshaft. All I need for a cam change is a set of intake gaskets and sealant.

October 28, 2021, 10:39 AM

chasracer

quote:
Originally posted by SLICKSTER:
You can buy that cam direct from Rher-Morrison. In my opinion the combo you have will like the 112 lobe separation. We have had several 555-565 combinations and they will be in the 4.64-4.78 et in you typical 4 link pipe rack with an 8 inch depending on driver size. Aly 1150, and fuel injection on these motors.

I'm looking at virtually the same numbers on an Erson cam but it's on a 114 spread. Not sure if they have it in the 112 but thinking 112 would be better. Car weight is 1590 + my 225.

October 28, 2021, 10:42 AM

TOP38

Converter - an good 8" will be faster than any 9" converter for your combo at 509 to 565. I ran a 509 up to a 565 with the same B&M 608 8" converter which work very well. 1925 pound 4 link dragster that ran 7.80's down to 7.20's in the 1/4.

Your current cam duration wise is OK but the low lift is hurting you in both combo's. A new cam will help but there's more to what's going on than just the cam. Forget the 1.8 rockers.

You never stated what you HP goals are or what it now runs with the 555, not to mention the rest of the combo details.

October 28, 2021, 12:07 PM

chasracer

Really didn't have any goals- thought moving up that many cubes would put me in the 4.85 range but that was it.

This entire deal was simply repairing the 509 that lost it's crank. We changed the stroke so bored the cylinders too.

The 509 was good for low 4.90s, this 555 hasn't broke into the 4's yet. A 5.21 a couple of weeks ago and at least a tenth of that was me, so maybe a 5.10/11.

For what I spent on the repair, I'd like to have those 4.80 numbers - at least it would ease the pain. This is a 1590# (+ my 225) 235" dragster, 4.10 rear, 1.80 glide, TSI spragless 8". I also have a 8" BTE. Both are in the 6000-6300 range. I currently have a 1050 QF Alky on it but have a Pro Systems 1200 sitting in the box. The heads are Brodix BB-2X and c/r is around 14.7. With the weather coming - additional runs this year are spotty. TnT tomorrow is looking like a rain-out.

October 28, 2021, 12:35 PM

Bob Deniker

My apologies. I thought when you were asking about converter, you were looking to have a new one built. I didn't realize you put the same one back in. That's what I was suggesting to do. I'm dumb.

October 28, 2021, 12:52 PM

Mike Rietow

A racer I know just bought a name brand iron block engine similar to the one you're describing, with a more suited camshaft. He was disappointed in it running 4.90's in good conditions and only 5.0's in poor.

They were scrambling around to speed it up, in the process of switching to a 8" opel core converter last I spoke to him.

He bought it spur of the moment, to replace this one which grenaded. This ran 4.70-80 when I did it. He ran it 6-7 years and had it freshened by a name brand and it grenaded in less than a year.

Don't know what you're running, or weight you're pulling but take it into consideration.

Ray Miller 4 link car.

October 28, 2021, 01:08 PM

TOP38

quote:
Originally posted by chasracer:
Really didn't have any goals- thought moving up that many cubes would put me in the 4.85 range but that was it.

This entire deal was simply repairing the 509 that lost it's crank. We changed the stroke so bored the cylinders too.

The 509 was good for low 4.90s, this 555 hasn't broke into the 4's yet. A 5.21 a couple of weeks ago and at least a tenth of that was me, so maybe a 5.10/11.

For what I spent on the repair, I'd like to have those 4.80 numbers - at least it would ease the pain. This is a 1590# (+ my 225) 235" dragster, 4.10 rear, 1.80 glide, TSI spragless 8". I also have a 8" BTE. Both are in the 6000-6300 range. I currently have a 1050 QF Alky on it but have a Pro Systems 1200 sitting in the box. The heads are Brodix BB-2X and c/r is around 14.7. With the weather coming - additional runs this year are spotty. TnT tomorrow is looking like a rain-out.

Borrow a gas carb and try that...

October 28, 2021, 01:18 PM

Mike Rietow

Check the stall on the trans brake every change you make.

When the stall increases from whatever is observed now on the T-brake, you can know it'll go faster before you get on the track.

100hp is 400 rpm's stall

If you're slick, you can tell everyone what it's gonna run beforehand.

October 28, 2021, 03:09 PM

T/D6591

quote:
Originally posted by SCDIV1:
Goob's suggestion is a good one.

R-M 420-116 is an Erson cam, makes good power, does not require huge spring pressure and does not break parts

I've used that cam and have one on the shelf

I recently installed one of these in a customers dragster and he went from 4.94-4.96 to 4.80's with a few runs in the high 4.70's

October 28, 2021, 05:45 PM

Lenny5160

quote:
Originally posted by chasracer:
quote:
Originally posted by Bob Deniker:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by chasracer:
Not sure what "try it" means in this context.

Try it means put it in and try it. At least you'll know what you need to do, if any adjustments need made.

I think we're having a comm problem here.

I do not know what you are suggesting I put in the engine and try.

I think he was suggesting you put in the converter you had behind your 509 and try it.

I was thinking the same thing, since you were asking what effect the extra cubes might have on the converter. You also specified the stall but not which engine produced those numbers.

October 29, 2021, 08:25 AM

Bob Deniker

quote:
Originally posted by Lenny5160:
quote:
Originally posted by chasracer:
quote:
Originally posted by Bob Deniker:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by chasracer:
Not sure what "try it" means in this context.

Try it means put it in and try it. At least you'll know what you need to do, if any adjustments need made.

I think we're having a comm problem here.

I do not know what you are suggesting I put in the engine and try.

I think he was suggesting you put in the converter you had behind your 509 and try it.

I was thinking the same thing, since you were asking what effect the extra cubes might have on the converter. You also specified the stall but not which engine produced those numbers.

A buddy had a decent 582 and it broke. He put his 522 in it, with the same converter (that I thought) would be to tight. It ran way better than expected. I mean almost as fast as the 582. Perhaps converter wasn't right for the bigger engine IDK.

October 29, 2021, 09:37 AM

Lenny5160

quote:
Originally posted by Bob Deniker:
quote:
Originally posted by Lenny5160:
quote:
Originally posted by chasracer:
quote:
Originally posted by Bob Deniker:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by chasracer:
Not sure what "try it" means in this context.

Try it means put it in and try it. At least you'll know what you need to do, if any adjustments need made.

I think we're having a comm problem here.

I do not know what you are suggesting I put in the engine and try.

I think he was suggesting you put in the converter you had behind your 509 and try it.

I was thinking the same thing, since you were asking what effect the extra cubes might have on the converter. You also specified the stall but not which engine produced those numbers.

A buddy had a decent 582 and it broke. He put his 522 in it, with the same converter (that I thought) would be to tight. It ran way better than expected. I mean almost as fast as the 582. Perhaps converter wasn't right for the bigger engine IDK.

I broke a converter this year behind my 632 that I believe began life behind my 505 back in 2006. I had a 555 and 565 in between, and the converter was never opened up in that time. ET was always good for the HP.

If the OP’s converter was so bad that a 4.8x engine is going 5.20, I’d think it would be pretty apparent in how it RPMs during the run, and the feel of the shift.

October 29, 2021, 11:22 AM

Duane1791

Chasracer sent you a PM

October 30, 2021, 10:49 AM

Lenny5160

quote:
Originally posted by chasracer:
Does anyone know a cam part number close to the R-M cam?

I had the RM cam in my 555/565, but had an extremely similar Bullet cam in my 505 before that. The lift numbers were .808/.775 and it was standard firing order where the RM cam had a 7/4 swap.

I can’t recall the duration numbers. I’ve looked around for the card or a picture of it and came up empty. It was a good-running engine though. I’d run either cam again in a similar engine.

I’ve always had good luck ET-wise with heads that are smaller than most would use, but IMO you’re currently way small on lift and should move to 112 LSA.